Using my laptop as live gear

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 01 Oct 2007, 11:50

Hi there, I just discovered Usine and, from what I read in the manual, it seems exactly the software I was looking for! What was I looking for?

I'm a guitarist who recently switched to a touchstyle/tapping instrument, which covers both the range of a guitar and a bass, with stereo out.
I can't plug it into my Fender Deville for fear of busting the 2x12' cab, therefore I need a solution both for recording and for live situations.
I then thought about running the instrument into a well-equipped laptop, so that at home I can just route the signal through my headphones or the speakers, and in a live environment I'd just have to plug into the mixer!

Correct me if I'm wrong, here's my "shopping list":

1. LAPTOP: it might not be 100% ideal, but I hope my 2Ghz Centrino, 2Gb RAM is enough for the moment.
2. SOUNDCARD: firewire, of course; I just really need 2 in/2 out and maybe midi to plug my foot controller in. The aim (apart from low price) is to have good converters and low latency.
3. DIRECT BOX: since I'm connecting a low current/high voltage/high impedance pickup signal into a line in, I think I'll need one, stereo of course.
4. SOFTWARE: I'd rather not go for Cubase or that kind of commercial shit, therefore I think Usine might be my best bet. For amp emulation, I heard wonders of the SimulAnalog guitar suite, which is a freeware VST which can actually demonstrate its emulation accuracy.

Do I need anything else?
Could you kindly give me some advice about soundcards, DIs, and software? What would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your patience

Michael

moody33 · Unread post by **moody33** » 01 Oct 2007, 12:57

Golcondio said "I'm a guitarist who recently switched to a touchstyle/tapping instrument"

Is it a stick chapman? mmmm

In 5- you missed "A MIDI FOOT CONTROLLER" to control usine.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 01 Oct 2007, 13:39

No, it's not a Chapman Stick, although the principle is the same... I think they are crap for the money (2000 euro or more for one, new), so I had a custom instrument built from a friend of mine who is a terrific luthier...

I already own a Behringer FCB1010 MIDI foot controller, it should do the trick...

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 01 Oct 2007, 14:17

I can't give you any good advice on what to buy, but maybe you should invest in a soundcard with 4 outs if you can afford it? I suppose you have 2 outputs on the instrument - one for bass and one for treble. It would certainly come in handy if you want some kind of separate stereo treatment for the parts, and at the same time have flexibility and separation on the mixer you're connected to. In Usine, you can easily change between in-/output configurations in case for example there aren't enough free inputs on a PA mixer.

If I understand you correctly, you plan to use the program to host VST effects and routings, and Usine should be perfect for that. I don't think you would need to invest in a new laptop, but that obviously depends on what software you will be using. Some convultion software can for example eat quite a lot of CPU, but remember that you can easily setup Usine to run only needed patches so as not to waste CPU cycles on something that's not used.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 01 Oct 2007, 18:38

Just few comments...
Take a particular attention to the sound card.
In your situation the latency is very important; Finally no choice: RME....
in the Fireface 400 there is an 'instrument' input, so you don't need a DI box.

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 02 Oct 2007, 00:44

+1 to Bsork.
Even if you don't play them together, separate stereo treatments, and plug 4 jacks in the console. Easier to balance. The more you separate, the better its is.
Be aware that the other guys (or ladies) playing live with you will want to use Usine too! I think that your laptop will quickly become the main DAW.
I had to buy a really big machine... It's in a rack. Very heavy compared to a laptop, but very "pro". Have a look there: http://www.up-servers.com/english/studi ... &tab=specs

+1 to Senso too about audio card.

And yes, the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI foot controller should do the trick. You'll definitely need midi controllers.
Cubase is commercial, but not really shit! Anyway, it's not done for live purposes.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 02 Oct 2007, 08:25

To everyone: thanks a lot for the kind advice!

I forgot to mention that I'll route the instrument through a dbx166a stereo compressor first: it's surely better to connect the balanced outs of the comp to the balanced ins of the soundcard, isn't it?

@bsork: good idea about the separate stereo treatment, I might definitely like it once I learn to deal with it properly.

@senso: I bow before your might, Master!

When I was thinking about a soundcard, I thought about some very entry-level gear (m-audio, presonus and the like, around 200euros), and for the DI I'd be leaning for a Radial (active, quite transparent, 200 euros); you suggest me a soundcard that, alone, costs twice the sum I had in mind, therefore I'd need more unbiased info (no Internet review sites) about it: what makes it the best choice?

@Vincent: if I win the national lottery (not that I ever buy a ticket), I'll be sure to follow your advice and buy the same monster as you! About Cubase, I don't think it's shitty per se, but I don't like the "buy before you buy" policy enforced by Steinberg, and furthermore I don't like software that come with hardware copy-protection devices.

All in all, I think Usine pro will be the next piece of software I purchase; what about amp simulation? Any advice?

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 02 Oct 2007, 16:10

Hi Golcondio,

Golcondio wrote:you suggest me a soundcard that, alone, costs twice the sum I had in mind, therefore I'd need more unbiased info (no Internet review sites) about it: what makes it the best choice?

You know: the A/D-D/A conversion is the main point. The number of I/O, the second point. That makes the price, I think. You can spare on hard drives, optical drives, monitor, video card, box, etc... not there. I can tell about that, I always don't have money enough!
Think about this very important point: give the means to your talent.

if I win the national lottery (not that I ever buy a ticket), I'll be sure to follow your advice and buy the same monster as you!

Not sure. Be close to your count and compare.

what about amp simulation? Any advice?

I've tried with vocals: no way. I'll receive in a few days a real machine specially for vocals. But for guitars, it's quite different. Certainly Bjørn could help you more precisely on that point.
It has nothing to see with amp or preamp, but I would like to mention that some good FX like convolution are very greedy with CPU and RAM.

It's hard to make the good choice. Ask all your questions and we'll try to share our experiments.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 02 Oct 2007, 19:38

Thanks Vincent!
So, I need the best a/d-d/a converters, enclosed with good preamps and at least 2 ins and 4 outs, am I correct? I must start saving for the Fireface or a high-end Motu then!
I looked at the dual opteron workstation (call it server?) you bought, and it cost at least 3500 euros (and that is with "only" 1 hard drive)! I already own a laptop, it's not optimal but it'll make do...
I already read two posts mentioning convolution FX and saying it's cpu/RAM hungry: what does it do, exactly? I'm fairly new to computer-helped music, and although I know (mathematically) what a convolution is, I never heard it applied to, say, a guitar (and I don't find helpful the example showing that the convolution of two square waves is always a trianglular wave...)...

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 02 Oct 2007, 21:12

Hi,

I'm sorry, but although I'm a guitarist myself, I haven't much experience with any of the virtual guitar oriented amp/effect/cabinet simulations out there in software land. As long as my old analog gear works, I think I stick to that for my "main" guitar sounds.

Your best bet is to download demos and check them out, both for sounds and to check whether your computer can handle it. Since you can mix'n'match all kinds of VSTs within a Usine patch, I wouldn't at all be surprised if you could create a little "monster" setup using only free or cheap software.

About convultion; check this:http://www.kvraudio.com/wiki/?id=Convolution

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 03 Oct 2007, 01:36

Hi Golcondio,

You wrote:I looked at the dual opteron workstation (call it server?) you bought, and it cost at least 3500 euros (and that is with "only" 1 hard drive)!

It is a server, since the mother board is quite different. The box too is quite different, much more robust. Good cooling. Everything is different. And I can say: it rocks.
3500 €! Oh no-no-no! That's crazy! There must be something wrong. I payed mine 1700€ plus VAT with an ATI ASUS X1600, two SATA II, 4Go RAM, two AMD Opteron and OS. I already had the other hard drives and the optical drives (and monitor, kboard...). But well a laptop has some advantages...

About dual CPU... Not sure it's always really useful for music. Some softs just begin to take real advantage, only some. It can be interesting if you run many greedy standalone stuffs, it gives you some comfortable spread. I think that if you plan to run Usine alone with VST, a good mono CPU will be OK. Olivier can answer better than I do.

About Audio card, yes, 2/4out. That means it will be a 4I/4O. If not, you'll eat your guitars. And Midi I/O! If you live in Europe, may I suggest you to have a look there, except for second hand, they almost always have the lowest prices and huge choice.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 03 Oct 2007, 17:30

Vincent, can you please go through the configurator on the website you advised me for the server, enter your actual configuration and post the .pdf with the specs? I must be doing something wrong but I never seem to get under the sum I told you before...
BTW, if I actually went and bought that monster, would it be better if I bought a PCI soundcard or a Firewire one (more costly, but portable and useable on laptops)?

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 03 Oct 2007, 22:56

Hi Golcondio,

About PCI/FireWire, I could not say. Since I'm live oriented and did not mean to have a varied config, I wanted all to be rackable and easy to move and quick to plug and no wires messing around everywhere. So I opted for PCI. Not sure it's the best, but it's OK for me.
About the "monster configuration", I could simply post you one of the the PDF-offers they made to me, because I did not configure my machine with their configurator but on the phone. May I use your private email?

BTW are we out-of-topic, here? I think so...

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 04 Oct 2007, 08:47

Vincent wrote:Hi Golcondio,
About the "monster configuration", I could simply post you one of the the PDF-offers they made to me, because I did not configure my machine with their configurator but on the phone. May I use your private email?

Of course you can, it would be very kind of you...

Vincent wrote:BTW are we out-of-topic, here? I think so...

Maybe a little bit, but I think all of my questions have been answered, so I don't really mind!

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 04 Oct 2007, 17:25

Golcondio wrote:Of course you can, it would be very kind of you...

Done.

Newbie Brad · Unread post by **Newbie Brad** » 12 Oct 2007, 22:29

Hi Golcondio, I am a newbie so I am not so smart about Usine, though I am doing like you, close to taking Usine and a laptop on stage with my fretless guitar and my partner's electronic horn to perform live. About the sound card, I haven't bought my laptop yet (probably next week) but my friends are all very recommending the RME products, some are owners and swear by them. About the VST guitar stuff, try the FreeAmp2 by developer FrettedSynth (free) and the ReValver II by the developer Alien Connections (not free). I like them both. ReValver is quite good and you can introduce VSTs into its signal chain. FreeAmp 2 is quite nice, has effects and a synthesizer instrument built into it, and the developer is working on FreeAmp 3 right now, says it will have significant improvements. Also consider trying WIDI audio to midi convertor VST (not free) to send midi from your instrument to synth plugins, I own it and like it.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 13 Oct 2007, 08:25

Also consider trying WIDI audio to midi convertor VST (not free) to send midi from your instrument to synth plugins, I own it and like it.

Just for info, you can compare yourself, but I think that the [audio To Midi] module gives better results that WIDI soft?

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 25 Oct 2007, 22:35

RME might become my primary choice if (and that's a BIG if) I manage to sell off enough stuff on Ebay and I get paid for the job I just started...
But still, all of my friends (RME and MOTU owners) bypass the interface's preamp and put a DI (Radial or BSS) in the chain between the guitar and the interface: if I end up following their advice, I might as well buy a less expensive card (without preamps I won't use) like a Presonus Firepod (enough ins/outs, not bad converters, MIDI!) and a good DI, all for less than a used Fireface!
I still need to think about it... but I'm 99,99999% sure to buy Usine!

@senso: what [audio to midi] module are you talking about? What are its true polyphonic capabilities?

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 26 Oct 2007, 09:18

Hi Golcondio, since Olivier is on tour, I will try to answer for him. The Audio To Midi he's referring to are two different patches that can be found under Modules/Analysis. There are two patches, one reacts faster and the other is more precise. These things will always be a compromise between responsiveness and precision.

Like practically every pitch analyzer/follower I have heard of, the patches are not polyphonic. That's why guitar synths have hexaphonic pickups.

I think I've read somewhere that some new software can analyze polyphonic material to some degree, but the process is far from perfect, and I also quite sure it's not a real-time process.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 27 Oct 2007, 10:49

Yes you are right Bsork, the polyphonic analysis is still very experimental...

Newbie Brad · Unread post by **Newbie Brad** » 28 Oct 2007, 04:17

I look forward to trying the audio to MIDI convertors in Usine. I have been experimenting with WIDI a lot lately and it can do simple chords diads and arps in real time with my guitar, but not with multiple instruments. Another interesting option with guitars and audio to MIDI convertors is to use the same common keyboard splitting zone techniques but using them with the guitar fretboard. Reaper has a built in audio to MIDI function in its ReaTune plugin and a module for the keysplitting. Is there a Usine module I could try for keyboard splitting? zones?

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 28 Oct 2007, 06:30

There are a couple of MIDI split patches in the add-ons that might do what your looking for. There are also quite a lot of freeware MIDI utilities to be found if you for instance do a search on http://www.kvraudio.com/.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 29 Oct 2007, 20:03

About the audio interface, how about a Focusrite Saffire? It should make the trick since it's got about the right number of ins/outs, a good (from the reviews, that is) DSP and the possibility of inserting compressor, reverb, eq and amp simulation in the chain before the PC (ensuring low latency in live situations)... I'm a bit put off by the "plastic toy" look and (especially) by the fact that it's not rack-mountable (I hate it when I must lug gear around in the box they came into...), but all the reviews I read were enthusiastic (and I can get it for about 400 euros new... and a free Cubase LE, which is not to be sneezed at!).
I'm not searching for the holy grail of sound clearness (my ears are trained enough to hear if I'm in tune or not, but nothing more, really...), I'm more interested in reliability on-stage: am I wrong?

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 30 Oct 2007, 18:27

I didn't test the Saffire.
But I insist, for "reliability on-stage" RME Fireface has no equivalent....

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:49

Golcondio wrote:I'm not searching for the holy grail of sound clearness (my ears are trained enough to hear if I'm in tune or not, but nothing more, really...), I'm more interested in reliability on-stage: am I wrong?

I think you and your computer will really like the Focusrite Saffire. Note nevertheless that the preamp is not analog. Cubase LE? Not sure you'll like it...

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 30 Oct 2007, 23:56

Well, for 477 euros (thomann.de price) the Saffire Pro 10 seems the best buy (822 for a Fireface 400 is out of my budget), and it's rackable!

@vincent: I'm not sure I get your meaning by the fact that the preamp is not analog... First of all, I'd be surprised if it was (on a medium budget card, that is), and secondly, if I wanted (and could afford) REAL quality I'd buy a separate, dedicated preamp...
Strange, thomann.de doesn't say anything about Cubase LE, while www.strumentimusicali.net says it's included... since it should be the same bundle, I'm a bit puzzled... But if it means I get to buy it for 50 euros less, it's more than welcome!
@senso (or anyone knowledgeable enough): a friend of mine (8 years recording experience with Cubase 5.0 and Cubase LE), while intrigued by Usine's live-oriented approach, says he wouldn't abandon Cubase for anything short of a full-equipped ProTools workstation, because he says that Cubase has an edge when it comes to mixing down lots of tracks with effects with no loss/artifacts... what do you say? How does Usine compare in that respect?

Vincent · Unread post by **Vincent** » 31 Oct 2007, 06:27

Hi Golcondio,
I thought you were looking for a "real" preamp... sorry!
I bought one for vocals, it's so important...
Thomann seems to bundle cubase LE with the Saffire (not pro 10 I/O). Just send them an email to ask, they're quick!
Yes, ProTools is my dream too. But I never mix with Cubase, not enough precision and not done for that. Neither Usine, I think. Usine is not really a Home Studio DAW. But I did some mixing with it and it's very clear, very clean. Generally, I mix only waves and add only the needed plugs for mixing, as few FX as possible. Automation is more flexible in Usine.
I only would need a Direct To Disk Module to synchronize the mixdowns in the sequencer...
All depending on the kind of music you mix and what you're used to. The best mixes I heard near me are made on a Roland mixing console, that is: hardware. Killing dynamics.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 31 Oct 2007, 07:24

Well, as you can well see I'm switching opinions back and forth, based on the new discoveries I make (the more I wait and gather information, the more cautious I become), so it's more my fault if people don't understand what I want (I barely know myself).
I've never recorded/mixed/mastered, and my goal isn't to buy now all the gear I'd need to build a full-fledged home recording studio... my original intention stays: I'm more oriented towards a good interface (at least 2 ins/2 outs and MIDI I/O) to couple with my laptop and Usine for live playing; if it allows me to record, it's an added plus since, anyway, the limiting factors in the recording quality will be my ability and experience more than hardware issues...

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 31 Oct 2007, 08:43

FWIW - a couple of comments:

It's not surprising that you get different (or missing) information on bundled software, so if it matters you should ask before buying. It's my impression that bundled software - at least when it's not from a company dealing in both soft- and hardware - can change quite quickly. It may not be a representative case, but the Ozonic I bought a couple of years ago came bundled with Reason Adapted, while two other Ozonics I know of - bought not a long time after mine - came with Live Lite and Cubase LE respectively. It seems alliances can change quite fast...

When it comes to comparing Usine with "mainstream" DAWs like Cubase etc, I think it's a bit waste of time. Usine is quite a different kind of program, although with the sequencer it surely can be operated much like a DAW, with midi/audio recording and mixing etc. I for one wouldn't stop using my DAW program (which incidently is Cubase SE1 - Studio 4 upgrade arriving in the mail any day now) for the not live orientated work - which may include tracks created in Usine. Before discovering Usine, I tried to use Cubase as a live tool, but frankly I think it's really bad for that - which doesn't mean that Cubase is a bad product. It's simply not made for live use. I regard Usine more as an "instrument", and most other DAWs like multitrack tape-recorders.

BTW: Is there really such a thing as a digital preamp? I know there are software out there the mimics the behaviour/sonic imprint of analog hardware preamps, but the pre-amplifying bit has to do with matching signal level.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 05 Nov 2007, 16:57

Dear Usiners,
I've just come to a much suffered conclusion: my Fender Hot Rod Deville 212 (60W of pure tube hotness!) can't handle my extended-range (from D0 to C#5) tapping instrument, and I'm getting frustrated because it sounds "muffled" when played at "neighbour-compatible" volumes... Therefore I'll sell it off!
This means that i'll have the money to spend on a serious live/studio rig.
I'm obviously fascinated by the Fireface 400, but I'm a bit scared of buying an audio interface that does much more than I can handle right now (I'd buy it "only" for the quality of the preamps and the converters and some "small" things like MIDI I/O and phantom power): I've never handled a mixing console if not for one or two faders, therefore I think the "totalmix" feature will be wasted with me, at least until I learn to use it... On the other hand, as Vincent stated, it offers unlimited possibilities when everyone in the band asks for a different submix in their monitor!
I just upgraded the RAM on my laptop to 2Gb (Kingston, btw), so I guess the PC side will do for now...
Therefore my (not confirmed) rig should be:

Laptop: Centrino 2,00 Ghz, 2Gb 533Mhz RAM, 100Gb HD (5400 RPM, might upgrade to 7200);
Audio interface: RME Fireface 400 or Focusrite Saffire 10 I/O;
My tapping instrument;
DBX 166A Compressor;
TC Electronics G-Major (at least until I'm sure of the reliability of bo the the set-up and my ability to manage it);
Usine (audio processing, amp simulator VSTs and [audio2MIDI] like there's no tomorrow!);
Cubase (for sequencing and multitrack recording only, therefore I'll buy an old, second-hand version);
Studio monitors (I really need to know more about this, to find the best compromise between price and faithful frequency response; I can use my beloved Sennheiser earphones for now, until I make my mind up).

Looking forward to make some exciting new music!

Update: it's surely less-than-ideal, but I think I'll continue with earphones since I'm not planning to acoustically treat the room I'll be making music into, and therefore the positive effect of using good monitors would vanish in echo, standing waves and the neighbours yelling...

Newbie Brad · Unread post by **Newbie Brad** » 12 Nov 2007, 13:43

I got the Presonus Firebox the other day. It seems to work fine. I haven't had time to fine-tune it for high performance but it seems very nice already.

Golcondio · Unread post by **Golcondio** » 12 Nov 2007, 14:34

Well, I just bought a Motu Ultralite, and I'm incredibly happy of it!
I've already started experimenting with simple amp simulation patches in Usine, and the results are already very encouraging...
I'm very satisfied of the preamp section (I was able to fine-tune the input gain and padding to get noiseless acquisition at a satisfying volume), but the nice surprise was the quality of the converters: I had the chance to try the same workspace with a PCI M-audio audiophile 2496, and it really breathes more!

Newbie Brad · Unread post by **Newbie Brad** » 11 Dec 2007, 18:19

Used my fretless guitar and Usine on my laptop to do some performances this weekend at Sonic Arts festival and University of Arkansas Stella Boyle Smith concert hall (along with my partner, his ewi and his gear.) Did a clinic and performances Saturday and performances Sunday. Used a Presonus Firebox and a keyboard amp set load and flat for audio. Usine worked well. Operated lots of VSTs (Koen, Alien Connections, PSPaudioware, FrettedSynth, Psychic Modulation, Elogoxa and Zonemobius plugs mostly) and also ran the Wusikstation VSTi with my guitar using the WIDI audio-to-midi converter. I want to try the Usine native audio-to-midi converter, but I'm not sure how to set it up.

Over · Unread post by **Over** » 15 Dec 2008, 13:42

Hello

I'm also a tapping player interested by Usine. I started using “Ableton live”, but I am interested by the modular side.
I currently try Usine live with my instrument, unfortunately my PC system is not stable and I heard some drops
I am interested by your experiment ...
My converter is a Line6 toneport

musically yours

goyya76 · Unread post by **goyya76** » 16 Dec 2008, 12:33

hi all, my two cents....i'm about to use Usine as a guitar amp+FX simulator - i've built a PC into a case (you know, those used by plumbers for their tools) - a 19" wide monitor fits the upper lip, the PC components are mounted on plywood in the lower part, and i made a cover with an aluminium sheet - there's space enough for a slim keyboard....
it seems to work,though i just need the final touches - i'm using an EMU 0202 USB which can run at 2 ms latency (the PC is an athlon dual core 5200MHz- or 5600....don't remember!), probably because the PC has just WinXP SP2 and Usine on....
as a foot controller, i just made a board with switches connected to an old keyboard electronics, to be used with the extensive Usine keyboard shortcuts implementation (of course i still need some "real" midi controller for pedals....)

if ppl are curious, i'll post some pictures when it's finished!

ciao,
Goyya

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 16 Dec 2008, 12:45

Hi Goyya, I'm interested in pictures!

Not that I think I will get any ideas for myself as I'm far from being a "handyman" (just ask my wife...), but I dig DIY stuff.

goyya76 · Unread post by **goyya76** » 16 Dec 2008, 18:02

hi Bsork, i'll post them asap - i suggest not to build such a thing: if you're wife sees you're able to DIY for music....imagine what she can ask for your home!!

just kidding....

Ciao,
Goyya

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 16 Dec 2008, 18:46

goyya76 wrote:if ppl are curious, i'll post some pictures when it's finished!

Please do! I'm building a configuration for live situation, and I'm curious about your gear.

Welcome to %s forums

Using my laptop as live gear

Who is online

Login • Register