Usine is to difficult for starters

[kara]

Yes it is, not for me but it is something I read on other forums.
I allways try to defend Usine, but well... sometimes the beginner is right.
Look here : http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2843649
a typical example

I could explain to him how to make a keyboard splitter, I actually have one derived from the midi filter.
But that is not the point, the point that he is making is by comparing to Ext 1.4. It is true that Ext 1.4 can very well be used for live usage (i did used it before Usine) and that it is way easier to create basic things like a midi splitter because the components are there ready for use...

So, I realy think that a priority should be for Senso to deliver more high level modules ready for the musicians to use.

Feel free to disagree, I'm only trying to give some advice.
I don't need it, but ok, i have a programming background???
And I'm trying to put myself in the place of a musician that has no knowledge about programming & maths. Those guys need help

k

[jean-mi]

I own Ext and used it live three or four times, and it's true that it is much simpler from the beginning, but the fundations of the program didn't stop changing at a certain stage, and never achieved the kind of stability and flexibility that usine seems to offer now.
But actually after buying usine and opening a few patches, I had to say to myself "phew...let's go and see what Ext2 is currently capable of..." Not a lot , in comparison to usine, alas...
So i've got to dig harder...
Actually, I would be happy to pay for high level modules that I need.
For example, I've always been embarassed by people on the KVR forums, asking for more and more features from Sonicbytes, or other small developpers...And a few month later, the small company collapsing, or Holger Zwarr (sonicbytes) beeing hired by Native Instruments.
So my question to senso is: why not selling some new add-ons ?
Actually some really eager consumer "gold members" like me could try to raise some kind of group-buy on different forums for one tool or another, before even the coding has really starded, on the basis of just a "cahier des charges".
Is this a stupid, or boring, or incorrect proposal?

[Golcondio]

I totally agree with this proposal: I don't like buying expensive mainstream software because I'd be mainly paying for marketing, advertising, bribing and the wages of people who never wrote a single line of code; I bought Usine before I even had a soundcard to play with because I was confident I would eventually learn to use it (still playing with patches, I didn't take on the sequencer or the conductor yet: I haven't even scratched the surface of what Usine can do!) and because 50 euros per year is a perfectly reasonable sum to pay for a product/project I'll enjoy using and that is very closely followed by its creator.
Therefore, I'd happily pay (maybe 10/15 euros? The price of a pizza and a beer here in Italy) for an add-on or a module that was tailored around my (and of course other people's) needs: I'm sure I could learn scripting well enough to suit my needs, but I'd rather spend my time playing!

[kara]

It's up to Olivier to decide of course
But I do agree that this would be a good solution

Olivier, what do you think of this
We could help you to determine what is needed for musicians that want to play live 'out of the box' without worrying about building modules or making script...

k

[moody33]

Who Is EVERYBODY?

Who Is the beginner?

The beginner is the one that have to pay for add-ons? Poor beginner...15 euros per add-ons...

Selling add-ons is a non sense since we have access to his contains:

I buy an add-on, then I modified the "code" and I resell it with my own name and I fuck you.

Business is business. That's what you are talking about.

Usine is 50 Euros: cheapest price of the world for one of the best live software.

Asking to sell add-ons is an offense to Oliver 's work and generosity in my opinion.

I want to say "Fuck you " (sorry) , but I prefer to say : " You don't know what love is".

Of course...it's up to Olivier to decide.

[Golcondio]

Who Is EVERYBODY?
Who Is the beginner?
The beginner is the one that have to pay for add-ons? Poor beginner...15 euros per add-ons...

Well, a beginner is someone who must either be taught or learn by him/herself: free tuition isn't something can be taken for granted, and anyway requires TIME and DEDICATION on the beginner's part, which have a cost and an impact on his/her life.

If a beginner has (I take myself as an example) no time to spend on learning another skill (for whatever reason: in my case, the reason is that I prefer spending more time over my instrument, playing, composing and arranging, than on tweaking my worktools), then he/she can't expect to be given anything for free:
- you want a website but can't be bothered to learn html? you have to pay
- you want your PC cleaned by someone after a virus/malware infection? you have to pay
- you want someone to fix a leak in your toilet sink? you have to pay
- you want someone else to do something in your place (that, given time and dedication, you could learn to do)? you have to pay!

I repeat that I'd be more than willing to pay for a custom solution to my needs, because it more than compensates the time I'd spend just starting from scratch on an entirely new subject: if someone is willing to help for free, he/she's more than welcome (I've never charged anyone when asked for malware removal, data recovery and all those pleasant windows-related tasks), but that's not the point in my opinion...

I buy an add-on, then I modified the "code" and I resell it with my own name and I fuck you.

Not if they were only officially "sold" through this site, with Olivier's approal... Anyway, any possible arrangement would have its exploits: I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who would try and crack Usine instead of paying 50 measly euros; the same people could try to exploit the system in the way you mentioned, but there's really no hope for some people...

[kara]

Well... the F**** Y** isn't exactly what I would call constructive critisme but I see your point.
And it's not up to us users to decide if add-ons should be sold.
Let's rephraze my statement then and explain a bit

There are out there professional musicians that actually earn there money from playing (yes those guys exist, i'm one of them)
Those guys know everything about music but are not technical genuises that want to tinker with technical tools.
For those users it is important to have live tools that are easy to use.

Now take a bit of recent history
We had Ext1.4, it was pretty good for live usage but not completed and Jorgen decided to drop it and start Ext2, which is for the moment NOT live oriented.
We had phrazor, who was a great idea, but never bug free and that was allso dropped.

Do you have any idea, how much it cost to a musician to change his complete live set to another tool.
So, musicians wants to invest in a tool that they are sure that's gonna stay there. Well, the only way for a company to stay is making money !
Thus, it needs customers and the way to have more customers is to make he product more accessible

Is this more clear ?

k

[nay-seven]

Community
share
friends

i prefer Usine stay Usine...

[moody33]

Ok, sorry to be "irritate", but this is my point of view:

Yes, everithing has a price. This is capitalism.

And nothing told us to be capitalists. This is future.

Nothing oblige us to walk on these railroad.

-If you need help for patches, what don't you ask directly on the forum: " hey, anybody wants to help me? I will give you 15 euros if you do this patch, or whatever you want in exchange". That 's fraternity and exchange. (And if you read the forum, you could find patches or scripts that were borns like this. )

-If you said, " why not selling patch?": this is business and this is capitalism.


But I find in Usine 's place and forum this concept: SHARING, I don't see capitalism here. That's why i'm a bit irritate.

However, I understand your point of view as a musician, but selling officially add-ons don't make sense for me.

If add-ons are sell by users, I promise, I will leave this pleasant place, without fucking you ( joking ..joking, keep calm)

[edi]

well... max isn't easy for beginners either. and nobody would complain about that. with modular software there is always quite a learning curve.
i used to make my livesets with xt + reaqtor + synthedit. it turned out that it takes much longer to figure out which module and which vst kicks the cpu than to learn usine
but yes, keep it simple! keeping the program structure and the workflow as simple and logical as possible will also make it easy for beginners. but that doesn't necessarily mean new all-in-one modules...

[antwan]

my 5 cents.

you know that feeling sometimes when you know exactly what you want?
but for whatever reason you have to delegate the job to someone else. and it leads to disappointments. and you wish you would've just done it yourself...

i find usine is best of both worlds in the sense that olivier provides a great platform for people to get what they want. i find i need to do these things myself or i will end up disappointed. but it's hard sometimes. it has taken a lot of time to learn usine to the point im at - and it's just a start . but im delighted day after day that i get exactly what i want. because:
- i'm learning all the time
- the forum is a place of extreme generosity and kindness
- olivier works really hard to implement all the good suggestions of the users (how many times have you heard: "done. next release."

so - i think this building business will end up in a pile of disappointments. people find they pay 15 euros and still dont get exactly what they want. and they still dont have the skills to make it what they want it to be.

the forum will continue to be a place of helpfulness, the documentation will improve, the add-ons section will grow and take better form...

i understand the coin has two sides. but let's all go forth with caution. we don't want to spoil this.

antwan

[moody33]

Do you have any idea, how much it cost to a musician to change his complete live set to another tool.


k

It cost a lot of time, and 50 euros using usine.

[Golcondio]

A lot of time I don't have (I'm lucky if I can dedicate 1 full hour per working day to playing and messing around with Usine), unfortunately...

I don't see the issue about capitalism: we, after all, live in a capitalist world which imposes some rules and a certain frame of mind; that's why I don't see where the sin lies in the idea of paying for others' time and expertise.
Surely, as antwan pointed out, it's veeeery difficult for someone else to understand 100% what you were thinking when you asked for something: that might be the greatest flaw in my opinion and kara's.

I greatly appreciate the climate of collaboration and willingness to share shown by the Usine community, as much as I hate big companies that rip customer off into buying expensive "add-ons" that should have been included in the original software: in the case of independent developers, I think that an extra source of income is always handy and ensures continuity more than everything else.

[martignasse]

hello guy's,

Interesting discussions here. Not because it speak about money, but because i think here is resumed senso genius and generosity, maybe it's why it's discussed with so much passion...

Well, the two aspect (sharing and business) are important, and senso already mentionned in some post that he is before all a musician, who developped a tool (and what a tool ! ), and not the opposite. Plus, if i remenber the usine history correctly, at the beginning, it what free, and senso decide to ask for charge just because he had not enough time to work on usine plus he's music activity. Here an interesting reminder thread
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=167

About the fact that some professionnal musician (or other) want to pay to have a specific work that they can't do (or don't want to do), an idea can be to creat a bounty system, like on the WxWidgets :
http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php ... s_Bounties

a short resume of the system :
Need a particular feature or bug fix? Set a price here, giving a short description, your name and email address. Hopefully, one or more people will contact you and you can arrange the terms of this development work.

I think it could be a good solution for people wanted a specific work to be made. And it keep safe the forum and sharing aspect from this "business thing". It surely have to be adapted, but it seem's to be a good solution.

[senso]

hello,
Interesting discussion(s).
And thanks for your interest

I've noticed two main subjects
1) Usine is hard for beginners
2) must we pay for add-ons?


1) Usine is hard for beginners

Yes Usine is not simple. I know. But music is not simple! As you know, I'm also a doublebass player and I spent hours, days, years practicing scales, intonation, harmony, sight reading...

All my favorites electro musicians, from Stockhausen to Aphex Twin, aren't simple musicians or composers they are killers!!! with a hard technical background. They probably spend hours to produce a single snare shot for. The music is not 'easy' for them too.

Of course hey are many interesting 'intuitive musicians' and I love some of them, but we can decide that Usine is not for them...
It's not a problem.

The only chance I have to exist in the gear of software developers isn't to make the perfect soft which can match all user profiles and all user needs, but is to stay original and different.
Like in music, the goal is not to be the best, because you always can find someone who's playing better than you, but is to be different, to have your own personality.

Can we conclude by "Usine is made for people who's want to play different music"?

2) add-ons free or not?

It's a complex equation:
- Usine package include a huge set of ready made add-ons like the actual LiveKit. An easy way to discover Usine and but doesn't encourage people to buy a pro version; they will stay with the free version or with a crack.
- Usine include a reduced set of patches, and a huge set add-ons available for download. Harder for newbies to discover the soft, but encourage users to buy the license. Something like "the soft is free but if you need add-ons: you pay..."

There is no real immediate solution to this equation. Actually I think that a compromise is the best solution: Usine include an important set of ready made patches, but if you want more buy the pro version to get add-ons

To make a synthesis of the two points above, the next version will include a set basics and functionals patches:

- phaser
- compressor
- limiter
- stereo enhancer
- a 'freezer'
- synchronized filter FX,
- gate FX,
- a resonator FX
- etc...
(all patches made with Usine)

In parallel, the user called 'LeVraiBernardo' is working on a new version of the add-ons download pages, easier and more efficient.
This will help us to enlarge the community.
If you want to help the Usine development, try to share your favorites patches with a small doc. I'm sure it will help!


Lets talk about money!!!
50€ / year is a good price? It will stay like that for long time.
Selling patches? I'm not sure it's a good idea but we can try?

I know that it will be hard to really make money, I mean, not to spend my holidays with Bill gates, but create a small business.

But I believe in the "service aspect" of the soft:

- the ability to create exactly the musical config you want with Usine
- have a very helpful community whitch can help you to solve your problems
- have very big add-ons database that covers a large range of musical aspect.

Many people pay 5€/month for a Russian FTP access to audio cracks! so...

[kara]

Very good ideas Senso
Don't forget a midi-router, splitter in the basic components
Realy important for live-players

k

[jean-mi]

Ok, I think I was the first here to speak about selling patches in this forum, and I now understand it is not a solution. I'm not a professionnal musician at all, and that may be my problem! I'm a week-ender, just used to buy softwares trying to amuse myself and play amateur music in amateur concerts. I agree I must be a bit too much capitalism-minded and I'm actually ready to pay far much more than 15 euros for a patch that would solve my midi- problems in USINE, knowing I've been paying hundreds of euros for software that didnt solve them. I know that a lot of musicians nowadays can't find the fine midi app they're looking for (heard it on a lot of different forums).
BUT, if I am told that USINE is made for people who can dedicate themself to USINE, and work hard on it before they can do anything they want on it (just like my f6666 guitar or any instrument), then I got no objection with that. That would even explain to me why USINE is so inexpensive. And I will see in the weeks to come if I will be part of the game or not. That's it.
The only thing is : I work too much, and I find myself too often fighting to get one hour to practice, or play, or just amuse myself. And maybe I've got to move elsewhere on the market. End of the conversation, and thanks everybody for expressing your thoughts on this. It was interesting, but hey, let's forget it and play!

[damstraversaz]

donationware could be an alternative for gold users, just an idea ...

[runagate]

I'm impressed an intrigued by the DSP patches, but I don't need such patches and wouldn't ever pay for them. I am poor and have 1500+ freeware VSTs that do more than anyone with any sanity is likely to make from developing DSP modules.

My interest, and I imagine beginners' interest would be, too, is in overall functionality and speed of workflow. Usine's functionality is as deep as anything else I know to exist, though the documentation on how to accomplish data routings and such is quite thin and the very nature of comples routing schemes, as my recent post about data glove midi note flows shows, are by nature complex and there's no way around that.

Pre-made workspaces are more along the line of what I've found helps newbies I've shown Usine to irl. A "hook up a VST instrument to this modules, and you're ready to play" workspace, a "these three step sequencers are linked to these three song parts in the conductor so add three instruments and make your score" workspace, etc. How to make such things and prognosticate what a new user would want to create with the other hardware and software they own, I've no idea at all.

I've no need for a phaser whatsoever; I've an entire folder full of them, and anyone else can download the same things I have, for free. Some of the more experimental modules I quite love but then I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.

I will try to make, and then share, some very-well documented projects for beginners like live multifx channels for real instrument inputs processing or the like.

[Klemperer]

Most interesting thread. I'm a newbie concerning Usine (I wanted to use it as an experimental tool but lost sight of it simply because my old main host, EnergyXT, got problems in the 2nd version and I tried to find another host, so tried to learn Podium, Reaper and one or two others now, for later running EXT and Usine in those, as runagate told at KVR that Usine will be VST soon; a GREAT idea in my opinion, by the way).

The same you (kara) describe can be said of a total different host, Podium. People don't get the hierarchic structure of that one, and so it rather lives in the shadow even though it is a great host for some people (not a competitor to Usine in any way, surely it would be fun for me running Usine in Podium if that will be my new host). Some musicians are left out that way, and I have seen that with EnergyXT1 in the past too. In EXT it was because there was no real manual, just many (good) user-manuals covering this and that, additionally a FAQ/Tips I ran, and the forum, which all in all was quite confusing for newcomers. I know that because quite a few wrote to me about it.

I agree, from that point of view, that a view videos for beginners - even if maybe the person who'd make them for the community would put something into it that just is most important for him/herself - would surely be a great thing.
And I agree to Runagate that there are so many many things out there, and so many good ones for free, that besides new experimental tools there might be not much need for a 191. ringmodulator and so on. Meaning, people would probably not pay for that. Well, I have had so many plugins in my folders that I might be an exception with some fellow-KVR-addicted, but anyway.

So beginner's Usine - tutorials would be a wonderful thing for me too:).

[jean-mi]

donationware could be an alternative for gold users, just an idea ...

Totally agreed!

[kara]

Well... if you look at the kvr thread that I quoted in my OP, the guy was saying that he couldn' split the midi comming from his keyboard without using script (or some other math) and that is pretty fundamental for a live player and a usine beginner
Isn't it ?

k

[runagate]

Well... if you look at the kvr thread that I quoted in my OP, the guy was saying that he couldn' split the midi comming from his keyboard without using script (or some other math) and that is pretty fundamental for a live player and a usine beginner
Isn't it ?

k

Yeah, absolutely.

Looking back I just want to be clear that nothing I said was in reaction to your posts, kara. I read them, but didn't know what to say.

I personally would be more than happy to bang out everything to make a new user oriented the moment they sit down but *I* don't understand Usine well enough yet!

Which is not Usine's fault. I've been terribly discombobulated IRL but I do, so so much, want to help.

[senso]

There is also another possible business model for Usine.

Personally I like Universal Audio style with the UAD1 dsp cards.
You buy the card and you have a 'credit' of 500$ for the FX's you want.

We can imagine the same with Usine, you buy the soft and you have a 50€ of credit to get additional patches. Each patch cost like 5€ then you choose those you need. If you need more you pay more.

And we can extend the idea with add-ons. If someone buy a patch made by a third person (not from sensomusic), the credit is transfered to that person. With this credit, the original builder can buy new patches!
Or get his money back? with a margin for sensomusic? In that case how to proceed without transform sensomusic into a 'Paypal' like site?
I like this model.

Another pb, before buy a patch you would probably try it. So it means a system of keyword/demo patches?

I'm not a great fan of donationware. Usine use to be like that but each time it was ambiguous. With the normal license model, things are clear.

[moody33]

Another pb, before buy a patch you would probably try it. So it means a system of keyword/demo patches?

Why not an " approved by senso" meaning that's it work well? So......I have 3500 patches to sell, with 1500 of them are not perfect. Good luck!

Good news, I need money. No need to go to "Usine", my new factory is at home.

[damstraversaz]

first sorry for my very bad english, I hope you will understand what I mean...

I'm not totally agree with you, olivier about the doublebass. of course you spent days and years practicing , like i do for piano ( it's my job like you) but in fact you are not alone . you work with a lot of people who help you and in my opinion you learn very quickly when you work with human ( for exemple I don't imagine to learn something from Bernard Cazauran ( a very nice person) with just a fantastic forum and a very nice manual from him. so the form of training is different, therefore the training is different.

usine is so musical that i not possible to "learn" it like other host ( modular or sequencer) It's not possible to just have a technical training and for me it's like to learn piano without teacher. why not? but you will quickly find your limit.
it's the same for instruments i play since a long time musical saw and I learn it alone. It works because it's a very "simple" instrument ( not easy but simple) it not possible to learn alone more complex instrument like doublebass or violin.

If i want to use usine and be good with it, It will take a lot of training, and I know that. that's why I works with it a lot like my other instruments. but I think it's very important to find help at the beginning , or a lot of people will try usine, find it so incredible ( you know like when you ear an instrument for the first time and immediately fall in love with it) but after one month then think they're never be able to use it because they do not have necessary competences ( like a lot of people who begin a instrument),that's not true of course.
for exemple , all my other host have I midi clock out for hardware synths. I spent hours to try to create a patch , then bsork post the midi clock out and after working on it I understand how it works.but if there is directly a midiclock out from the setup menu it could help

[edi]

once upon a time the term "shareware" involved the idea of sharing. of contributing to a community. and since every user contributed something to the software, prices could be kept low, therefore lots of people could buy it and the developer could make a living from it. nice idea isn't it?
i think selling patches is artificial scarcity. there are two likey outcomes: either the demand will shrink and there will be less users (& less money)
or there will still be a demand and someone will crack and distribute the soft and patches via p2p (like it happend with reqtor). this would mean driving your customers into illegality. i am in favor of the sharing idea. ask jorgen, he's done it and he has some nice income now

[kara]

Hm I don't follow you here, what did Jorgen share ?
He developped an application that isn't to expensive just like Senso does, so I don't see a difference ?

Anyway, my point isn't about selling patches as add-ons or not, it is just about the fact that Usine, as it is sold, should contains more ready to use components for the beginner and non-technical musician.

If you want to have a parallel with Ext, think about the midi channel component which is ready to use for everyone. Now if you want the same in Usine you'll have some work to do, work that not everybody is able to do

k

once upon a time the term "shareware" involved the idea of sharing. of contributing to a community. and since every user contributed something to the software, prices could be kept low, therefore lots of people could buy it and the developer could make a living from it. nice idea isn't it?
i think selling patches is artificial scarcity. there are two likey outcomes: either the demand will shrink and there will be less users (& less money)
or there will still be a demand and someone will crack and distribute the soft and patches via p2p (like it happend with reqtor). this would mean driving your customers into illegality. i am in favor of the sharing idea. ask jorgen, he's done it and he has some nice income now

[raintalk]

I think Usine would benefit if there were someway to create a patch and "compile it" or somehow obfuscate it to protect it's intellectual value. Maybe this just isn't possible.

I look at Usine as a platform, and it would benefit by many great minds creating addons for different situations and workflows. Even some situations that no one has ran into yet.

Having a way to protect the plugin's content, and allow it to be sold would encourage the growth of Usine as a platform.

Perhaps the compiler step could be something done by the Usine site?
Having the official "Approved by Sensomusic" QA and stamp on it.

Just an idea

[senso]

I can create a 'demo patch' system, a kind of 'read only' tag, to disable modifications and viewing. Just for demo's.

But I think that the major interest of Usine is to be able to modify patches easily and adapt them to our configuration. So a totally and definitively protected patch doesn't fit to the modular global spirit of Usine(?)

The concept of 'approved by sensomusic' is not easy to implement.
Who can decide that a patch is good? me? another person?

Imagine, you spend a week to make a patch, and then I decide that your patch is finally a piece of shit! ---> NOT APPROVED. What will be your reaction? A source of infinite conflicts...

The selection can only be done by the entire community: your patch is good because it's downloaded a lot. It's not because nobody like it! Simple?

About the Universal Audio model

The more I think about this idea the more I like it!
The add-ons database is made of Sensomusic and third users patches.
Some add-ons are free and others cost for example 5€.

A new User starts with a credit of let say 50€. So he can download 10 add-ons. Include in the package.

If an user buy a third party add-on, the sellers receives a credit of 5€, available for other add-ons or for any product of sensomusic, included Usine license!

We have to find rules to avoid a database of 37456 patches.
something like:
Each user can upload only 2 or 3 paying add-ons and, of course, an unlimited number of free patches.
It's the best way to encourage creators to upload only their best patches for paying, and then make a selection....

And if you make a best-seller patch which is downloaded a lot, it's finally normal to have an Usine license for free because you contribute to the success of the soft.
A good add-ons database is good for the soft!!!

[bsork]

...a totally and definitively protected patch doesn't fit to the modular global spirit of Usine(?)

I agree, but I dislike the idea of not being able to view the "inside" of a patch. If a tag of some sort can easily be adapted to protect the modules and connections (but not the values!) of a demo patch, it's possible to have a look at what it does and maybe get some ideas for modifications that would suit you. Of course, if one really doesn't want to pay for anything, such a patch could be "hand-copied" or the protection scheme cracked, but so be it...

A source of infinite conflicts...

Agree!

your patch is good because it's downloaded a lot.

The number of downloads doesn't really tell much about the quality unless it's for the paid version of a protected patch. What about a rating system?

Some add-ons are free and others cost for example 5€

I think that the price should be set by the creator, but within limits. And a limit of 5€ seems reasonable to me.

[commercial break]
"HOLIDAY SPECIAL!!! Download my Destructor_Off_All patch NOW!!! Only 2.99!!!"
[/commercial break]

A good add-ons database is good for the soft!!!

Spot on!

---

...and now to the original topic of this thread..:

It seems to me that what a lot of new users are struggling with is MIDI-related. And it's true that compared to a lot of other hosts, remapping notes and such-like could be made easier. Even if you're able and willing to sit down and do some real work with a patch, it's a lot more complicated to manipulate MIDI than most other data in Usine since MIDI is made of variable length records, and also have message types that "belong together" - the most obvious example being NoteOns and NoteOffs. Things are a lot simpler when you have some single value and want to do some simple logical or mathematical operations on it.

To do something with the newbie problem, I'm going to try to do a patch or five that I think (or rather hope...) could solve some of the more typical MIDI problems in a not too user-unfriendly manner. I haven't programmed anything yet, so don't hold your breath!

[senso]

I'm going to try to do a patch or five that I think (or rather hope...) could solve some of the more typical MIDI problems

Yes good idea.
It's seems to be strange but, I never play keyboards on stage so I don't really know what kind of patches I can do to solve major problems...

I think that the price should be set by the creator, but within limits. And a limit of 5€ seems reasonable to me.

Probably. We have to think carefully about this model. But I like it!

[jean-mi]

Bsork : too late, I'm holding my breath now!
This week end I see if I can help but I really start from zero.

[eimhin]

I think charging for add-ons would make things too complicated. I like the idea of motivating people to share more of their own creations and developing solutions, but I'm not sure if this is the way to do it.

The add-ons section reminds me of the Reaktor user library. Reaktor user ensembles are free to download, just like Usine add-ons, and I think it should stay that way. If the reaktor user library went commercial, I think that would dissapoint a lot of people. I think usine just needs to build a bigger user community to see more uploading.

I'd still like to offer an idea. If people really wanted to be able to charge for add-ons, maybe we could develop a system like what istockphoto.com uses. Go take a look at the site to see how it works. It is credit based. Everything on the site costs a certain amount of credits. To get credits, you can either buy them, or upload your own photos (and if they are good quality, you are awarded credits).

That might be more trouble than it's worth, but it'd be a great way to motivate people to make patches, and upload them.

[raintalk]

Hey I'm all for free patches also. I'm sure there will be plenty. Mostly "little", "simple", "my first patch" types available But I'm really glad Usine allows for patch and scripts. It's very handy.

Usine and patches doing what musicians need it to will the key to it's success. Keeping some things proprietary - like that of complicated patches, helps to protect those who take the time and effort to create them. I think it would encourage even more development.

i.e. The source code to Usine itself isn't and shouldn't be "open". I suppose I could just go out and write my own raw software, but I'd rather Olivier with his insight and talent do it. I don't care that VST and VSTi's I buy are closed. Same for some patches, good ones that do something I really need can be closed - and I'd still buy them if they fit my needs.

And it will eventually happen that somebody spends big time and effort on a patch only to have the next version of Usine embed the capability in it. That's why I think Senso - should look them over.

PS - Bsork - I agree on the midi-related beginner problems. That's what I have problems with. Especially complicated VSTi like Jamstix, which is wonderful for live playing.

[nofish]

When I started looking at Usine I was looking mainly for a host where I could create keysplits and layer different vsts for live performance. I would have stuck with Brainspawn Forte probably, but it still has no Midi feedback for use with my BCR2000.

So I started getting into Usine and I really like it by now, but I agree it's hard to learn...

I was alomost about giving up when I found out
- no keysplit module included (one of the most basic things for live performance IMO)
- a patch is needed for a simple metronome out
- no instant audio and midi loop triggering like for example in Ableton Live

So I think, Usine is unbeatable for modular manipulation, but some more "high level" modules would be nice to get beginners started...

[kara]

...- no keysplit module included (one of the most basic things for live performance IMO)

Yes there is basic one, it's called MidiKeySplit.pat
You can load it as a subpatch in your patch and you can combine them to have different splits

- a patch is needed for a simple metronome out

I think there 2 of them in the add-on section

- no instant audio and midi loop triggering like for example in Ableton Live

Hmm that one I don't understand.
ALL my live patches are based on that.
Can you explain what you want to do exactly, I don't have live....

Just a very basic example
Take a piano roll, load 8 parts (midi loops) in it and of you go

So I think, Usine is unbeatable for modular manipulation, but some more "high level" modules would be nice to get beginners started...

That was mu original post )

[nofish]

Ok, for the first two points you are right, they are here now.
But as I can remember, they haven't been here when I started with Usine, so I asked for them in the forums. I was just annoyed back then that a program intended for live use didn't have them already.
Btw this is one reason why I got stuck with Usine - helpfull developer and forum community!

As for loop triggering:
When I first tried Ableton Live for this, it was so straight forward to me, I didn't even almost have to read the manual. There are slots where you can drop your loops, adjust quantize settings and assign the on/off button to a Midi controller.
See picture here:


To be honest, I don't know how to accomplish this with Usine.
That's the next thing I want to do, so what's the best way?
Or should I better start a new thread?

[kara]

Yes perhaps start another thread, because we'll need some live user too, as i have no idea what live does
A question tough, are those audio loops or midi loops ?

k

[nofish]

Audio and midi loops can be used the same way in Live like above. On different tracks though.

[senso]

We are working on a major improvements. The next version will simplify this kind of features:
Just drag files, on the grid, auto adjust the length to the synchro.
Very soon.

[damstraversaz]

ouah ! that's a very good news ! will it work with midi too ?

[bsork]

Since I've already stated I was thinking of a midi mapping patch:

I've done a bit of work on it now, but I'm far from finished... There's always some other ideas to implement and test, but here's some details of it so far:

Key zoning:
Trigger modes:
- normal (as input)
- toggle (NOTEOFF ignored, NOTEON in toggles ON/OFF)
- off (no output)

Velocity modes (NOTEON velocity only):
- normal (as input)
- calculated (input * compression/expansion ratio +/- fixed value)
- fixed value
- inverted (128 - input)

+ transpose, midi channel out (obviously!), and "thru" (input to output).

Technically every note from 0 to 127 is a zone, but you won't have to program it that way. In programming mode the two latest received NOTEONs define the current note range. Polyphonic aftertouch will use the same zones to define which note numbers and channels to output, but there's no way of altering the aftertouch values.

Channel message dispatcher:
This will for each of the 16 midi channels select whether to output the following types of messages: pitch wheel, program change, aftertouch, and control changes. I also think I'll add an "aftertouch to CC" option (with selectable CC number) since there are some instruments that don't understand aftertouch. It could of course also be used to create a CC in addition to the aftertouch.

The key zoning is working, but I will do some more on the UI bit, while I haven't yet programmed anything on the channel message stuff. I'm quite certain that it will be ready for the next release.

If you have any comments, please feel free!

[kara]

Sounds perfect Bsork !
if you need a beta tester, just send to me

[nofish]

We are working on a major improvements. The next version will simplify this kind of features:
Just drag files, on the grid, auto adjust the length to the synchro.
Very soon.

Yeah, sounds great!!!