I need Your opinion

[senso]

Hello Usiner?s

This is an unusual post on this forum and should be normally a personal reflection.
What can I do with Usine?
How develop it and make this software more powerful?
Should I start a more ?commercial ?approach?
There are between 300 and 600 User's all around the world, but hard to estimate.

It seems to be stupid but I need your opinion. Why? Because Usine only exists because you use it, because of your feedbacks and suggestions. Finally, I think that you are a part of the Usine story.

Should I split Usine into two versions?
-A free one but limited (how limited?)
-A ?commercial? one (how much?)

Should I keep Usine as a donationware? To tell you the truth, the donations amounts do not cover the real cost?far away? And I?m only a musician.

Should I try to find a commercial partner to turn Usine into a ?normal? software? (will be probably much more expensive)

What do you think?
Any other Ideas?

[jigui]

Hi senso !
first thank u for Usine wich is a great product and really 'original' that's what i like )
well it's just a small opinion from a bedroom user ...
i think lot's of potentials users would pay for a reasonable license price like with EnergyXT or Renoise for example.
But even with this you'll need more users for more subsidies ...
yes Usine is not a multitrack software ! (i've read the doc ;o) )
But perhaps adding somes 'classicals' basics in a new display mode
would attract more users ? like piano roll or something for midi editing, an audio sample editor.A native function for midi clock sync OUT.
And for more popularity for mode users ;o)) :
Automapping functionality and mackie mcu mode are really popular
to make navigation and assignation mode easier with control surface like Behringer BCF/BCR2000, KORG microkontrol ,...
Usine would be a terrific (oups it is already ) a really popular monster killer live machine with all of that !! except ...if we must buy some high-end laptop and borrow too much money to use a high-end commercial audio software product ....=(

This end of month ! ok.. i'm going to make another donation before the purchase of Usine by Steinberg ;o) ..

Sorry for my bad english ..and many thanks for Usine once again!

hem (out of subject) if u go to the nord of France for a Live , demonstration or something mail me please =)

[lalo]

hi senso,
i'm a musician to...so i understand you so good

i think it is good for usine to survive and go ahead...
if it needs to go commercial...just keep it at a good budget..and don't let marketing decision to tailor the software...like with music

[bobsled]

Hi senso,

Since you brought it up, may I ask what might be your vision of/hopes for Usine's future? I'd imagine that you, as both user and developer, have some dreams about where you'd like to see this go.

Your post gave some hints. <grin>

[senso]

It's a good question!
My dream with Usine is more "artistic" than "technical".
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that we can make a different music with Usine than other software. Another way of thinking, other tools.

The most interesting for me is to create a kind of artist community with a new approach of the electronic music.
A dream, for example: create a Usine Festival, and invite artists from all the world. To play together in live!
Not necessary around Usine it self but around the "new electronic" music.

I don't really want to make a "business" with it but only
- pay someone to help me to develop and improve the software
- keep some money to produce music, help other musicians to develop their own project all around the world, create a records label, a small festival, etc.

I know, it's only only a dream...

[bmoussay]

Hi Usiners,

Olivier,


I think Usine is amazing, and maybe it's the right tool to turn the computer into a kind of "musician", with whom I can interact, that's inspiring, that sometimes live it's own life, while letting me keep things under control at the same time. Well anyway it's for me the key to a certain freedom that I couldn't find with other software (Live, Logic, DP, etc...). I have the feeling that for once I'm not a "slave" of the software's way of thinking, but I can adapt the software to my needs.

This is why I hope that Usine will keep open, artistically oriented, improving technical details and ergonomy, while keeping up with it's current "spirit".

Usine is growing, you've already spent so much time with it, but the more it'll grow, the more time it'll need. So I think it seems logical for you to hire someone to help you. For this you'll need money.

Personally i'd be ready to pay for a "commercial" version of Usine, since it's a tool I use to make music, if things go this way.

This idea of two versions is not bad (free-commercial), maybe you could limit the number of tracks, input outputs, number of modules, while keeping enough essential things in a "free" version to let newcomers fully taste the immense potential of Usine.

On the other hands I think the concept of Usine as a donationware is beautiful. The idea of a festival/record label/community is really great: and maybe it could generate some income to help you develop Usine. Maybe it's an Utopia: art produced with a software generates money to develop the software, instead of selling the software itself.

Well, let's see how things go. Usine is definitely unique in it's kind, it's already a great tool as it is, I'll continue report bugs, make suggestions, and of course make music with it. I'm happy to belong to the community of Usiners. Thanks again Olivier, for this amazing work, and good luck for these choices to make, I'm shure things will become naturally evident to you, and you'll make the right decisions.

Rgds,

B.

[mahtazz]

Hi Olivier and everyone,

There are some very good host developers that are alone. EnergyXT, Podium, Luna, Matryx, Minihost, Orion, Phrazor, etc,... and Usine, of course.

Each developer has found a market niche to fit and Usine has it, too. Perhaps, you could promote Usine a bit to more people knows it.

More users is more work ( and more problems)

Olivier, you can continue your amazing work, we'll follow you.

Cheers,
Miquel. (a big of fan)

[meloday]

Its a good question!
My dream with Usine is more "artistic" than "technical".
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that we can make a different music with Usine than other software. Another way of thinking, other tools.

The most interesting for me is to create a kind of artist community with a new approach of the electronic music.
A dream, for example: create a Usine Festival, and invite artists from all the world. To play together in live!
Not necessary around Usine it self but around the "new electronic" music.

I don't really want to make a "business" with it but only
- pay someone to help me to develop and improve the software
- keep some money to produce music, help other musicians to develop their own project all around the word, create a records label, a small festival, etc.

I know, it's only only a dream...

I think a Usine festival/record label is a fantastic idea! We all know your busy, Olivier, developing this beautiful software. So we, as users, should be partly responsible for organizing such events. Count me in!

In my opinion, i think that people would gladly pay to use such a beautiful product. My suggestion would be to set the pricepoint around $40 or $50--similar to eXT. Musicians are always looking for a different way to work and perform. Usine definitely fills this need. All-in-one solutions seems to be the big thing nowadays. To this end, i'd love to see Usine have the ability to be loaded as a vst/vsti. Or, have native midi and audio sequencing abilities.

Another thing, i'm looking to set up Usine as a digital dj/performance tool. I'd really love to see mp3 support!!

thanks Olivier!

[grego mondo]

Hello

Yes beautiful soft and amazing, like the one you've always been waiting for (in a way some kind of a mix between Building blocks, Pure Data & Max but BY and FOR musicians).
Yes the Utopia of a donation ware, generating the money that its need to grow is beautiful and, especially in this times, we need to fight for this kind of other ways of thinking and living ... (users sharing their built blocks, ideas ...)
I'm not using since a long time but I'll try to think about this and submit some more ideas ...
Have a good day and plenty of good things until next time ...

[mahtazz]

Hi Olivier,

After some comments from users, what have you dedided to do? <grin>

Thanks!

Cheers,
Miquel.

[senso]

hello,
I'm not sure, but I think I'll split Usine into two versions
A "free", limited
A "pro", full

I know, It's stupide to discover this basic marketing rule now...

But I still have many questions
- How limited is the free version?
- How much for the pro?

Don't worry, the early fans' authorization key will stay valid for the pro version.

[mahtazz]

Great.

Thank you.

[bsork]

A couple of suggestions for limitations in the free version:

Limited number of channels/tracks; eg 8.
Limited number of inputs/outputs; eg 4 each.
No MTC, MMC, OSC support.
Maybe no sequencer? If I've understood things correctly, one has to pay to use the sequencer in today's version as well, or..?
Maybe some limitations in programmability; for instance no script module.
---
The price point for the full version I too think should be around EUR40. eXT has been mentioned as an example, and I think it goes for EUR39.

(Actually, with the exception of the suggestion of dropping the script module, the way I have been using Usine until now, I could make do with the free version I'm suggesting...)

[bobsled]

I believe bsork has it right with the price. It would make it still possible for folks with limited means to purchase Usine.

[Vincent]

Okay, just arriving, I see that something's happenig...

(By the way, my language is french, so...)

I just got one idea, starting from donatationware which talks to me somewhere.
What about this : ask for MORE donnation each time Usine is used in professional (payed) activity or perf? Ask for advertising each time Usine has been working for recording a CD or "anytrack" else. Things like that.

Ok, just an idea.
First of all, I should begin to know Usine a bit an to use it, right?
That's what I'm gonna do right now.

Festival. Ouh!
Well. I know nice places for that. But what a job!
Is it really good to work for that instead of working for Usine to live, and live and live?

Be patient, Olivier, that will be solved. I'm sure.

V.

[Klemperer]

Hi, just a few suggestions.
I come from EnergyXT, and own Orion Platinum, both - already mentioned - made from passionate people who do all the hard work alone.
Nice question to your users...I just can tell you about EnergyXT. It is extremely cheap for what it is (39 Euro at the moment). Because of this and because the man who makes it is such an extremely friendly guy, there are many many users who do something for the program. The code-gurus do kinds of midi-plugins, the power-users answer questions in the KVR-forum, and maybe I started a FAQ and later a WIKI with the help of a most friendly man who set all that up for free+EnergyXT. I bought, on a tight budget (I'm a writer) 4 licenses for other people up to now, partly to support the developer. I translated a user-manual for EXT into German, and so on.
All of this would, if the same applied for Usine, spare you countless hours for your music...

1. TIME FOR MUSIC
Now the question is, how much time can you take away from your music, and how much did you already take away (=would you like to take all those works on your shoulders that you'd have to do after Usine is a commercial product, additionally to all those countless hours up to now making Usine? ).

2.DONATIONS FOR USINE
Concerning donations: some more " there are way not enough donations" should be spread upon the user-basis. I did (no boasting intended, even if it may sound this way) more than 25 donations up to now, more than 5 of them as the only one (unbelievable, 14000 downloads and 1 donation...alas). So I know loads of stories about that. I just think KVR, for example, is full of people who buy and buy and buy software, so a thread there for people like you or Tobybear and more might lead to a change in this recent "I want anything for free but go on bashing the 80s as uncool"-idiot-talk we swallow every day...This crazy arrogance and "not-worshipping the hard work of people who make for example Usine for musicians", I mean.
Just an idea, that "might" be a chance if you'd want simply more donations and not the hard extra-work for a commercial product... (I stopped donating recently, as it was really too much for me, but there are many others )).
I had no problem, if I were a heaven-like coder, to tell people from time to time that the situation is unbearable now, if there would hardly be a benefit from all this work.



3. A WELL-KNOWN FORUM
Jorgen Aase from Massiva of yore had an own, frequented forum, but after he changed to KVR and the developers' place there he has the biggest forum possible... You might change to KVR too? I am sure KVR-people already know your program. (I am just starting it, that was the thing translating slightly manuals (a bit tiresome...) and collecting FAQs kept me from doing - so I have a good experience before me, i'm sure:-). But being daily or every few days "there" must be a difference for Usine, maybe? Maybe many have it tested shortly, like myself last summer or so, and would really benefit from such a KVR-forum?? There are many of them, some not much frequented, but surely new ideas are most welcome...


4.: 1 or 2 versions
I get the feeling that if I loved usine as an addition to my future-private-plans in music I'd buy it even on a budget for a reasonable price. Maybe I am wrong, but the "oooh only apple-musicians are real musicians"-people are still talking nose-speak about programmers who do it all alone, and use Logic or Cubase alone. So IF you'd "allow yourself" of dealing a hell of a lot with coding AND answering people's questions and receiving update-wishes ("hey I've paid, I want this feature I saw in Ableton live6") (of course you are the man who makes it,but well...things happen you might want to release a commercial version for a price that low-budget-people can afford. It is a tough race in the meantime, but you say usine is able to what no other software is able to... I don't think Jorgen Aase could go on with EXT2 if he would have had a freeware- and a payware-version. I simply think his price is ridiculously low, as he's a good man )). And it shows that there ARE people who are a bit wiser now than the "all my fellow-Djs say only XXXX is the hype"...
Meaning that besides being a tough situation (good software already there even for low prices or even free, like Usine..) there IS a need for great new ideas on an affordable basis.


Alas, I hope I didn't bore you. I'd say
- make great music and listen to all of your fellow-Usine-users and you would get your Usine-festival some day without having a commercial program coded
- start a commercial program if you can live with it (I don't think Jorgen Aase or all of the other independent developers have much time for music, but well, I don't know). If you want to get enough money for it, accept that it is NOT wrong to see a connection between all of those poshy hate-speakers (in music too, and in "pop-discourse" at least in Germany more than anywhere else, alas, what an idiotic blabla) and "I will crack this" or "I won't use low-price software as I am Mr. Schmidt, not little Schmidti" or something (I thought about using Mr.Schmidt and Schmidti for some story once and would like to use some DJ-pictures where people look so extreeeeeeeeeeemely bored, what others find so extremely cool ))).
So if you'd want to go commercial in a way, I get the impression it would be better to release just a commercial product plus a most user-friendly demo like many do (again, EnergyXT was the first prog that allowed you to even save your music, and just if you wanted to buy it in some future, all of your projects could/can be loaded...something like that).
I am sure I'd play with the demo like I play with free Usine next time, (and thank you again a thousand times, Mister!, for that!) - and if it would add to my EnergyXt, I'd for example think twice before buying another useful host/program, and would maybe buy Usine if I could afford it.

My God, what a long rant, but it's what I think, and you have asked;-). All the best!

[Klemperer]

...and, things like music mags like BEAT in Germany now ( very similar to the very good old Computermusic from the UK) have Usine on their CD or DVD and give a first "how to" like "BEAT" 1/2007 is surely great too.

[senso]

hello Klemperer,
Thanks for your post.
There are many interesting suggestions. I'll think about all of them and try to find the best solution for me and all users.

For information, there are between 500 and 700 users, hard to estimate. Around 100 download per day... It's incredible, I know, but I only received 50 donations...

Also, I hope that people can make a big difference between a cool and tiny free VST and Usine.
Usine starts to be a very big soft?

By creating a commercial version I just want to tell that Usine is no longer a nice small software but can be used in professional situations, and I think it?s true. (especially the next release 2.5, coming soon).
Psychologic ?

[Vonbrucken]

for me it is unbelievable there is only 50 donations that have been made
but in a way comprehesible because most of the people are selfish and they won't donate for something they can have for free
i won't expand myself on myself on how most of of people are nuisible and should be burned in an eternal lake of gasoline (slightly joking uh uh )
but we can still find out solution inspired by what other already did
for exemple hosting usine free version on sites like tucows

http://www.tucows.com/

or simply on filefront
http://www.filefront.com/


maybe on both

other solution restrict a good part of the forum only to premimium members

create a hall of fame for donators so they will feel in a way rewarded for their actions

don't give premium membership for free

and think about it what is precious is rare so maybe decrease the diffusion of the software in a way or an other while increasing the publicity on usine


people that say they can not donate are big liars anyway if you would do a sociological studies on those people you will see that they are living really well for the most of them and even if they don't live in a western countries they are considerated as wealthy people or at least in the upper middle class

[Vonbrucken]

and btw i 'll donate again for the new year and i am just a student

[Mighty Pea]

Should I split Usine into two versions?
-A free one but limited (how limited?)
-A ?commercial? one (how much?)

Should I keep Usine as a donationware? To tell you the truth, the donations amounts do not cover the real cost?far away? And I?m only a musician.

Should I try to find a commercial partner to turn Usine into a ?normal? software? (will be probably much more expensive)

What do you think?
Any other Ideas?

First off, let me express my gratitude in allowing me to costlessly use this piece of software. I've not used it much, but in opening it once or twice was enthousiastic enough to want to dig further.

My vote would go towards keeping it free (limited or not), mostly because i enjoy using it, and have to spend every euro I get on 'professional' purchases (and i'm not a musician, not by far ) and savings. I understand the donations model isn't working for you, and i'm saddened to hear you only got so very few donations, but then again, not every download amounts to a usiner, as many of these will be people just 'giving it a go', or possibly people re-downloading it for a different pc. I've only known about Usine for a short while now, and i imagine less forum-savvy people won't have heard about it at all. How about promoting it more? Have any magazines covered it so far?
If not, it can probably be chalked up to them just not knowing about it, or not realising what it can do.
Have you talked to anyone from Createdigitalmusic.com? I'm convinced they'd be very interested in it, given their love of modular things. Just look at how often they mention max/msp, csound and other less user-friendly things like those (at least, usine strikes me as being easier to decypher).

The current limits on the free version seem fair to me, and seem like something the 'power-user' would pay for in a heartbeat.
Is opensourcing an option here?

I realise not every software-developer is comfortable with opening up 'their baby' to the public like that, but it works for some...

I don't really have anything of any value to add here, but i felt compelled to at least share my extremely positive first impression with you.
I can see this becoming a fantastic companion to Energy-XT for ANY fan of modular environments. If you price it accordingly, i'm sure i wont be the only one to shell out for it.

edit: i believe that the psychological factor of price could definately come into play as well though, so perhaps you could split the payware version into a commercial and personal-use version?
Even then i would make it so hobbyists can use the personal-use license, even if they make a small bit of money off it.

[senso]

thanks for all responses and suggestions.

I think that 50 euros is a good price for a soft that we use currently. It's half the price of a basic VST plugin.

For me it's hard to imagine that we can pay 2000$ for a powerfull laptop, and try to get all the softs for free!
The real tool is not the computer itself but the soft!
We should change or mind?

The softs editors have to make their products as cheap as possible, and musicians buy them as much as possible.

Now, the real question:
"why REAKTOR is so expensive?"
response:
1) 80% of licences are hacked
2) for a commercial success,
- you need a powerfull marketing department ,
- very attractive interface design
3) the copy protection cost a lot of time and money
4) huge demo sound library adapted to most common music production (not necessary the most interesting...)

If you take a look on the NI staff for Reaktor, you will see something like
- 5 person for marketing,
- 5 for graphic design (interface)
- 5 for sound design (demo sounds)
- 1 for security protection (against copy)
and ....
- 3 soft developers, the purpose of the soft!

so the price is 500$ and we pay only 10% for the soft itself.

At Sensomusic Corporation we have:

- 0 person for marketing,
- 0 for graphic design (interface)
- 0 for sound design (demo sounds)
- 0 for security protection (against copy)
and ....
- 1 soft developers, the purpose of the soft it self!

so the price is 50$!!!!! 100% for the soft...

PS: REAKTOR is great and I use it (with Usine of course! and a regular license...)

[Vincent]

Now, the real question:
"why REAKTOR is so expensive?"
response:
1) 80% of licences are hacked
2) for a commercial success,
- you need a powerfull marketing department ,
- very attractive interface design
3) the copy protection cost a lot of time and money
4) huge demo sound library adapted to most common music production

1) the more expensive => the more warezed or the oposite?
2) commercial success, just to make money to pay 16 persons
to work on something else than the soft itself, or the opposite?
4) huge demo, well, who cares?

Usine is realy a great software and I dont believe this: I can have it for free. The free version is absolutly OK for my use now.
Are you crazy?
OK, I like you. I can make music and stay a poor man. I feel free.

[senso]

the more expensive => the more warezed or the oposite?

Usine is the cheapest soft of the world but as already 2 cracks: one by AIR team the other by NEMESIS...
What to do??

[Vincent]

Already two cracks!
Great! That means youre great and nothing else.
Dont worry about that: your soft is a pro engine for pro musicians.
And PRO means Licence (or, like me, free version if it's OK!).

[bsork]

Olivier,

I don't like warez, but in a way I think you should take the two cracks as a kind of compliment. After all I don't think they matter much as to how much or little money you get back for you (tremendous!) effort.

[Jake Johnson]

I've ony been using Usine for a few days, but I recognize its value, and want to see it do well. So some thoughts:

1. Creating usuable presets would add both a source of revenue and something to show reviewers. (Usine is great once you understand what it can do, but it takes some time to reach that understanding: it sounds good in the abstract, but that may not be enough. Let people hear more presets that they can play. The opening preset now is interesting in showing what can be done, but it isn't an instrument that people can play. In addition, if you put together and sold presets with several instruments and configurations that made the best of the programing abilities, users might well pay $20-$50 or more per set, partly for the sounds and partly to reverse engineer the way things are put together.

2. Put together MP3's of the sounds that can be created. Now, one has to downoad the program to hear what it can do. (It's great that the program is getting popular. MP3's would make it still more popular.) Maybe there will always be hackers, and a percentage of business will always be lost to them. All one can do, without a dongle, is increase interest to the point at which the sales are large enough to be viable even when that percentage is written off? (Sorry to sound so business-like.)

3. I'm of two minds about the donationwarefree versionfull version problem. I'm not sure people will pay for the additional tracks when they can do so much with four tracks. How about a small fee for what is now the free version? Maybe $10-$20? Would let financially challenged but serious people use the limited version and still provide a little income to help you to continue development. A demo version might also be available that let you create only one track? Or expired after a month?

4. Working with someone else who has a free or inexpensive VSTI might let you bundle it with Usine and have it set up in interesting ways for a demo preset. You could reference their site on yours, and vice versa. I'm thinking of a relatively simple VSTI, here, such as the old cellofan.

5. Revise the description of the program and the manual:
The description of Usine on KVR-VST ( http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2304.html ) tends to bend over backwards to distinguish Usine from other programs. Understandable, given the many sequencers, etc. However, I wasn't exactly sure what the program could do after I read the description: I wasn't sure if it included a sequencer or or not, or if it was more of an effects creator that set on top of a sequencer. (Reread the description and see if a novice would know from reading it.) There needs to be a flat statement early in the description that says that Usine handles the basic chores of recording up to however many tracks, etc, but gives the user far more control...)

6. The manual was confusing (maybe just for me...): the sequence in which subjects were introduced seemed, to me, tangled. I wanted to know the logical structure before seeing the screen layout. Maybe just a few words near the start to explain that one creates Workspaces into which one loads Presets that can contain samples, VSTI's, chains of effects etc. You can then assign the presets to Tracks.

7. I at first found the default viewinterface confusing for two reasons: the default vertical tracks and the absence of any visual clue that they were tracks (no lines or bars of shading running down the page). I'm not familiar with every tracker or sequencer out there, but this default view was immediately disorienting. I understand that one is not really in Sequencer view when one opens the program, but I'm also not sure why one isn't. Since everyone's goal will be to attach the Presets to tracks, why not more clearly show the tracks as tracks immediately, even if they are vertical? We could still double click on a preset to work in it. (Maybe this is just my own private difficulty. On the other hand, if I created a new word processor, I might want it to look, on opening, like most word processors, even if it offered excellent new features and configurability.) In addition, the manual speaks of the tracks in the default view as tracks, so it seems a little confusing when one clicks on the Sequencer view: one was already in a sequencer view of sorts. The new view is just a new, horizontal layout, yes?

[senso]

thanks for your comments.
Maybe the solution should be to develop Usine with an external point of view: someone to write the manual, another to build the interface, etc.

The vicious circle: I can't pay for someone to help me, so the soft is not really attractive, so I can't get money to pay someone, etc...

I'll try to think about your interesting suggestions.

[capitan mission]

What do you think after 4 years???

I never used Usine in these 4 years, but now, its so cool.
Congratulations!

[waolelaid]

hi olivier
since the 2.7 version i learned a lot about electronic music with
usine and all the community , even if i'm not able to build complex
patches it allows me to follow the development of music and it brings me
more knowledge and although i am not a musician (just play a little bit piano)
i'm ready to pay for a commercial version
and for your dream i think it's very fine and hope it'll happen
regards