USINE AS A LIVE LOOPER

Ariajazz · Unread post by **Ariajazz** » 06 Aug 2012, 08:16

HOW CAN I USE USINE AS A LIVE LOOPER, I MEAN AS A LOOP STATION SUCH BOSS RC SERIES????

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 06 Aug 2012, 08:43

oi there!

there is a RC clone under Browser > Usine > Sample Recorders

you could also try the Echoplexx there...also make sure to check out the Add-ons section

~io

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 07 Aug 2012, 10:33

Hello.
I'm glad that somebody is interesting by making loopers in usine.
Actually i'm working on this question.
I find some solution to synchronize looper between there.
look on my illustration :

Each looper have is own clock. every looper is synchronize by a global clock.
In this way, all the loop are a multiply of all the others.
For example, if the first loop duration is 10 sec, the others could have as duration, 10 sec, 5 sec 2,5 sec, 20 sec...
when ithe four loopers are full, i can "drop" all the 4 looper on a 5th looper called drop.
i have a matrix to route the signal on any of the 4 loopers and 2 fx racks.
it make infinite possibilities !
tell me if you're interested !
regard.
Joffo.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 07 Aug 2012, 21:12

That sounds really interesting! I was using möbius as a looper as I wasn't able to get my loops synchronized with each other so easily.
I would like to try your setup.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 08 Aug 2012, 14:21

It's not finalizated yet. But i'd like to have some beta test with other users if they could give me there impressions.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 09 Aug 2012, 20:27

I would be interested in trying this out. It would make interesting comparison to Mobius.
seamusblake@gmail.com if you want to let me know when I can try it.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 10 Aug 2012, 14:07

I've just finish a first step of my work. It like like this :

i think it's necessary to make some documentation to learn to use it.
Where do you live ?
Are you french ?
best.
JF

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 10 Aug 2012, 21:52

I live in NYC
Sorry I don't speak French. Your looping environment looks intense!

hesspet · Unread post by **hesspet** » 24 Aug 2012, 21:20

My solution was to integrate the wonderful Möbius looper into my Usine setup. This works very well the 2.2 Version of Möbius is stable and I never had problem to run it with möbius. I build a control framework (a midi routing framework) around a rack and use Usine als a very flexible rooter.

My current setup is Möbius als Receiver or aux and all other racks send to aux and to master.

Instead of writing Möbius scripts I control the looper via midi command patches from Usine.

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 21 Sep 2012, 20:29

Hi,
I've followed your advice hesspet and tried Mobius : loop synchronisation is excellent, the concept is obviously "musician friendly", but it's not simple at all. I've started reading the manual and tried to dive into the conceptor's logic but it's not easy to master.
I've another trouble with Mobius : crackles appear as soon as I record more than 3 tracks. My latency is 128 samples and fine for Usine live so I don't want to change it. The soft also loves my CPU and eat around 15% of it.
I tried RC 51 a few month ago, but struggled a lot with loop synchronisation.
I keep an eye on your work Joffo, for me a looper made with Usine is an ideal, so please give us news

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 21 Sep 2012, 21:41

Hi my looper made in usine is on the road. We made some performances with in and the musician who play with it go to make a perform in a usa in october ! i don't remember where exactly but it is a happening organized by looper deelight communauty :
looper deelight.
You can see is facebook page : lucid brain integrative project
witch present the artistic project.
Our looper have a lot and funny and usefull functions.
First, it's totally synchronized with a clever system made with the help of senso.
we tried to think of human cognitives limites to elaborate our system.
in this way, we have only 4 loopers to make your sauce. But the good new is if the 4 loopers are full, you can "drop" the content of there
to a fith dropping looper !
then , the four loopers will be cleared to add new loops synchronized or not.
i try to add a undo function and realease mode using two loopers on each 4 tracks to make the overdubs but it create mesome crackles.
The more interesting with the "brain" (is the name of our project" is the matrix connection panel.
with in, you can connect input on loopers or 2 fx tracks. but you can also connect loopers on fx tracks or loopers on loopers.
It create great flexibilities and creativities.
after that, you can mix your sources (inputs, loopers, fx track, and dropping looper) with mixing deck. all paramaters are automatically
reset when you clear loopers.
As prototype we 're working on a new module called band mode. This module offer remote possibilities on loopers command.
For exemple, you can program a song that start by recording on 2 loopers. then you can overdub on the first and stop the second, then you can start a new loop on the third.
etc...
all the controls are optimized for 3 interfaces: 1 launchpad (for the matrix), 1 bcr 2000 (for effect parameters, pitch starting point, mixing...) and on fcb 1010 pedal board (2 switch to navigate between the 4 loopers, 1 for rec,1for clear, 1for overdub,1for stop, 1 for reverse, 1 for autopan mode, 1 for sync inhib).
i'll post you some screenshot.
regards.
Joffo

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 21 Sep 2012, 22:01

Nice project !
My needs are really simpler than yours : I'm not looking for effects, stretching, reverse... just the "essential" : sync tracks, play/pause/mute, overdub, undo, restart...
Your "band mode" sounds nice. I'm thinking (sometimes!) about a way to record other musicians on stage to make loops. I was thinking about a simpler way : using a second fireface sound card : 20 tracks must be enough to catch everything I want... but relying on a single laptop for a whole band on stage... not sure I'm ready !

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 21 Sep 2012, 22:18

This is the brain:

And this is the band mode :

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 23 Sep 2012, 12:14

I discover looping (I've never tried any hardware before) and something I really found clever on Mobius : you record your first loop, then when you want to record another track, the soft waits for the beginning of the loop to record. If the second loop is longer, the lengh is automatically multiplied to match the first loop lenght.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 23 Sep 2012, 16:00

Yes it's quite good but a little Binding. With our system you can start recording when you want. it's the end of recording witch is waiting.
the new loop is synchronised with is own synchro point witch was the starting point.

grego mondo · Unread post by **grego mondo** » 24 Sep 2012, 09:00

Waooh !!

Looks great,
I would like to try it ...

jeremysdemo · Unread post by **jeremysdemo** » 24 Sep 2012, 21:14

too newb to start my own thread....

but I did have a few Looper based questions...so here goes.

I tried a patch I found here called "Midi looper"

everything seems to work fine, it records incoming midi data which I can see on the timeline as notes are played.
However I am unable to get any midi out of the track the loop is on.
I tried adding a Midi THru and connecting that to the Midi out Bus but my external sound modules still are not receiving midi data out of the Midi out port of the PC.

any help would be appreciated.

PS, is there any way to disable the audio functions of a Usine template? I am interested in building a midi only looper to process midi data only.

jerm

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 24 Sep 2012, 21:55

@jeremysdemo: About the midi looper patch, I've answer in your other thread.

About disabling audio, yes you can go in the global setup/system and choose NO AUDIO!, this will let you use Usine only as a midi ( and OSC) daw

jeremysdemo · Unread post by **jeremysdemo** » 25 Sep 2012, 00:47

nay-seven wrote:@jeremysdemo: About the midi looper patch, I've answer in your other thread.

About disabling audio, yes you can go in the global setup/system and choose NO AUDIO!, this will let you use Usine only as a midi ( and OSC) daw

thanks again!

I look forward to working more with this rather intuitive VST builder and exploring the possibilities.

jerm

Ariajazz · Unread post by **Ariajazz** » 25 Sep 2012, 03:08

Joffo can I try tour looper??? could you post a link to the patch download. I'd like to check if it is possible to record one take and then play just a portion of it. Your invention looks very powerful.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 25 Sep 2012, 08:39

I'm afraid you'll have the same problem than with the master track, joffo patch will maybe not work correctly with your 5.20 version...?

jeremysdemo · Unread post by **jeremysdemo** » 25 Sep 2012, 15:41

nay-seven wrote:@jeremysdemo: About the midi looper patch, I've answer in your other thread.

About disabling audio, yes you can go in the global setup/system and choose NO AUDIO!, this will let you use Usine only as a midi ( and OSC) daw

A question about OSC,

it's my understanding that is used via bluetooth or some other wireless system to control Midi parameters via iphone, android etc?

is there a practical application of this with a PC and hardware, eg. external volume pedal ( or CC knob), fader, rotary encoder?

jerm

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 25 Sep 2012, 16:30

yes, you'll find several IOS and Android appz like TouchOSc, and some hardware too
check here for some examples :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control

jeremysdemo · Unread post by **jeremysdemo** » 25 Sep 2012, 16:45

nay-seven wrote:yes, you'll find several IOS and Android appz like TouchOSc, and some hardware too
check here for some examples :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control

perhaps I should have re-phrased the question.

I understand OSC is used in proprietary hardware like Lemure and DYI stuff like Midibox, along with pure data applications,

my question really is if Usine has a practical application of OSC for non-proprietary or DYI controllers, eg, nano, phat boy, etc.

If so, that would have a resource advantage over midi as far as real time control goes.

jerm

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 25 Sep 2012, 17:19

Usine use the standard OSC protocol, you can use it between 2 computers ,with 2 sessions of Usine and so.., if you want to use it with hardware , this hardware must support OSC ..?
here 2 wiki pages about OSC in Usine
using OSC
OSC Setup

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 25 Sep 2012, 19:05

Hello arria jazz hello everybody.
My looper is in a working progress so i'm not sure it's totally ready to use.
but i'm interested by beta testers. Could you give me a mail that i can send it to you ?

jeremysdemo · Unread post by **jeremysdemo** » 25 Sep 2012, 19:28

nay-seven wrote:, if you want to use it with hardware , this hardware must support OSC ..?

yes, that is how MidiBox and other DYI OSC hardware controllers work, firmware via systex dump in a X-CTU call terminal.

I just didn't know if their was a land bridge to using OSC with standard midi hardware controllers to take advantage of the resolution and speed of OSC, like one can do with a hardware encoder to get beyond the 127 midi limitation.

it occures to me OSC even with some of the simple patches available here may be able to be used as a software encoder, eg. I send midi CC 34 (with the value of 0) countless times from a rotary knob, the encoder then takes that number and depending on if I go up or down continually goes in one direction to it's limits (which you could set 2 or 3 times 127) giving you higher resolution for things like pitch bend.

maybe I am thinking backwards and OSC is not even needed for "virtual" encoders.....

thank you again, you have been most generous with your time.

jerm

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 15 Nov 2012, 17:54

hello !
have a look on the 2 videos usine my live looper :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_X_fb6 ... ature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0O0p5wT ... e=youtu.be

best !

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 15 Nov 2012, 17:55

hello !
have a look on the 2 videos usine my live looper :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_X_fb6 ... ature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0O0p5wT ... e=youtu.be

best !

bsork · Unread post by **bsork** » 15 Nov 2012, 22:09

Cool!

BideJo · Unread post by **BideJo** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:25

Hello Joffo !

Do you ever already need some beta testers for your looper ?
I have a RC-50 and I want tou do the same things with usine. Is that possible ?

BideJo · Unread post by **BideJo** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:25

Hello Joffo !

Do you ever already need some beta testers for your looper ?
I have a RC-50 and I want tou do the same things with usine. Is that possible ?

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:57

With our solution you can do more than with a rc50

.
Are you interested for beta testing ?

BideJo · Unread post by **BideJo** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:28

YES !! I'm clearly interested !

How can I give you my mail ?

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 05 Mar 2013, 01:16

I don't know. May can we ask to nay seven.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 05 Mar 2013, 08:23

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 05 Mar 2013, 09:18

thanks !

BideJo · Unread post by **BideJo** » 05 Mar 2013, 09:35

thanks Nay

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 06 Mar 2013, 17:00

Hi Joffo
I'm quite interested in beta testing too, as live loopers (not synchronized) are part of the my musical project core...
I didn't find any good alternative to my physical loopers in the addons, and I'm too patching-newbie to build my own solution at the moment.
So if Nay7 can give you my mail, I'd be happy to test your beast.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 06 Mar 2013, 18:22

If there is such a great demand for loopers I wanna share my idea of a looper in Usine. It is stlll beta and also has no undo (yet).
It's a simple looper with a few sync options and octave and reverse.
You can use as many loopers you want and set one of them as the master.
Make some beta tests if you want....
The only thing to explain is: The small "R"- button on the record-Button is the reset Button. It needs a "longpress" to reset the loop.
And there is a bug when playing reverse and play sync 'on'.
I will be interested, if you like my idea

MultiTrackLooper

I would also be interested in beta testing Joffos looper, but I assume, that my slow Computer won't like this cool monster!

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 06 Mar 2013, 20:48

Thanks Percuson for sharing, I downloaded your patch and hopfully I'll test it tomorrow.
Anyway I'll send you a feedback as soon as possible !

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 07 Mar 2013, 00:09

I everybody. Xpir i sent you a mail thank to nay seven.
percuson you're right my is not very cpu friendly ! But i'd just make some enhancements to only calculate usefull part of my patch.
My core i5 won 20% of performance (of course not when all my looper are running with slicers). i'm wonder if it could win more cpu with a true exe version programmed in code.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 07 Mar 2013, 00:10

So i'm curious to try your system !

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 07 Mar 2013, 07:43

I would like to do a comparison of joffo's looper to Mobius. I have MObius working in a basic way quite effectively but im sure Joffo's can do some interesting things.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 07 Mar 2013, 13:33

Hi percuson. I tried your patch. It looks cool but i didn't manage to understand how the synchro operate.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 07 Mar 2013, 14:25

Yes, thats not easy to understand.
It's adapted from Möbius.

For the master Looper it has no effect.

For the slaves it sets the time
- when record affects (rec sync). On cycle, beat, etc...
- and when play options affect (play sync)
So you don't have to be that exact to get the same loop lenth for a slave loop when using sync and loops are perfectly synced when you use the octave and reverse buttons. You can switch any option before it takes effect and it is still perfectly synced.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 07 Mar 2013, 19:08

I updated my looper and removed the bad behaviour when playing reverse

MultiTrackLooper

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 08 Mar 2013, 00:06

Sorry but i'm afraid to not understand:|
When i try to record with several looper there never synchronize thereself.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 08 Mar 2013, 01:11

... it works on my machine...
set one loop as master with the button in the upper left and record the master loop.
Then (in the slave loop you wanna have synced with the master loop) you have to activate 'rec sync' .
On the right of the 'rec sync' button there is the combo-box with the red button. For first experiance it should be set to 'cycle'.
Then you can record the slave loop.

That's it.... I hope it works!

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 08 Mar 2013, 01:23

ok understod.
This is a very intereting way
not as free as mine but very very lighter !

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 11 Mar 2013, 18:03

Hello !
This is a screenshoot of the last version of my multilooper :

I'll probably compatible with hollyhock

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 11 Mar 2013, 18:36

That looks so deep wow!

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 15 Mar 2013, 18:36

Percuson, I tested your multitrack looper but I still have numeric clicks at the loop junction.
Which source do you use for the recording ?
I do use a live saxophone....

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 16 Mar 2013, 13:30

Hi xpir!
Yes, I have the same problems. It's dcaused by the sampler module. The zero cross doesn't work that well for sustained sounds (I use vibraphone and percussion). When I have time, I'll insert an automatic fade out to prevent this. Maybe also a small fade in will be necessary....

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 16 Mar 2013, 21:57

Live loopers seem to be one of the weak point of Usine 5.
I tried to read all the threads about this subject, and usiners still have problems. If I make a synthesis of what I found :
TaraBarbier proposed a live looper which still has clicks on my machine;
Gilles Dimanche has his "KeepOnPlaying" addon, but only for sustain sounds without any time reference;
Joffo has the Noundo, I have to try a "light" version he kindly sent to me, but Noundo seems to be a full option sampler quite heavy for light computers like mine (eeepc)
Percuson has his MultitrackLooper but clicks sometimes remain at the loop junction.
LaTenaille talks about Moebius integration.... it sounds strange for me to integrate an external module as Usine is a software dedicated to live situations, and live sampling is definitely in the field. But LaTenaille doesn't talk about sustain sounds and clicks at the loop junction.

OK, so let's ask the team : what do you think about that ? Will there be changes in Hollyhock for the sampler's module ?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 17 Mar 2013, 02:23

I tried all actual loopers (exept Joffos Noundo) and wasn't really satisfied with one of them.
Especially live looping of real instruments is really difficult.
Before using Usine I was working with Möbius, which is really a great Looper, but Usine syncronisation is quite difficult because it only supports Midi Clock. So sync drifting is predetermined.
Möbius does a short fade in and out when looping (fade out is not done, when the recording is directly followed by an overdub) That's why you don't have clicks. I don't know how the zero cross option in Usine works. It seems like it makes a cut at zero cross points. This doesn't really prevent all clicks. But it seems to make sense when building a sampler in Usine.

The sampler Module is already a very complex module in Usine and I think it would be overloaded, if one would integrate the necessary settings and options needed for live looping. I'm thinking about a special lightweight looper module. But I'm not shure yet, which options would be needed. Undo/redo would be great, it takes too much CPU time if you do it with patching and is always a strange workaround. But I'm not shure yet, how to integrate it in a clever way to ensure all possibilities, when patching - and how to integrate it in a CPU-friendly way. Also I would prefer a position output, not sending relative percents, but real position in samples or milliseconds (If you'd use "append", you wouldn't have to calculate position percents in a more or less accurate manner) This also could be used for micro sounds, time stretching and pitch shifting etc., like the buffer object in Max or Pure Data.

Many things will work with simple patching. But there are a few things that would make building a good looper (with good sync options and undo/redo,...) much easier. Maybe we should discuss this here and maybe someone builds a user module, ... or it gets a part of Usine.
...
I'm dreaming

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 18 Mar 2013, 16:04

I now tried Joffo's lightNoundo, and my eeePc is still undersized for it... Joffo told me he would have a look and try to skim it again, but most of the work was probably done.
To be more precise in what I need, here is my configuration :

So I need a sampler module which assumes overdubbing without clicking at the loop junction : with physical samplers I still use (Jamman, RC20), when I need a sustain sound, I just record live a first blank loop and then I overbub my sustain sound. It works quite well. With all the usine samplers I tried, I always have somme clicks overdubbing... Except Joffo's one (but too heavy for my need).

Of course usine is theorically very interesting for me as I could have different samplers routed on different patches.
The basic things I need would be rec/overdub/clear and possibly undo/redo. No synchronization at the moment...

But those very basic functions seem to be quite difficult to obtain as far as I can understand.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:08

Hi xpir!
I modified my looper to prevent clicks.
I couldn't check out, if the attack times and release times are ok.
But you can modify them in rec/overdub gain ctrl sub-patches.
It seems, that there is no need to set an attack time but if you need it also for the record, you can easily add it.
It's all abit like a workaround, but it seems to work.
Please give me feedback!

here it is:
Multi Track Looper 2

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 22 Mar 2013, 22:55

Thanks Percuson !
I downloaded it and I'll test it on Monday...

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 22 Mar 2013, 23:41

I hope it really works. I didn't have enough time to fully test it....

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 25 Mar 2013, 17:00

One hour test...
I still sometimes have some clicks appearing in the middle of the loop -> I suspect my weak notebook (even if CPU and memory stay in low occupation).
BUT
The gain at the loop junction goes down and you really can hear it. I'll try to search into the ASR tonight or tomorrow.

Actually I tried several solutions with ASR to avoid the click, I don't know if it's possible to have an inaudible junction working on the attack and the release with only one sampler...

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 25 Mar 2013, 19:00

I tried this way witch may be could work : http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... xample.pat
It's a very basic solution on a very basic patch only for the test.

The problem is you have an offset of 50ms at the end of the rec.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 25 Mar 2013, 19:00

I tried this way witch may be could work : http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... xample.pat
It's a very basic solution on a very basic patch only for the test.

The problem is you have an offset of 50ms at the end of the rec.

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 26 Mar 2013, 15:24

Hi Joffo
Keeps on clicking at the loop junction whatever I play (sustain sound, ostinato...)
Setting the delay time just changes the release time, but the click remains...
Aaargh!

If it's not clear and you need audio files to illustrate the problem, tell me.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 26 Mar 2013, 15:59

Very curious, in this way the starts and the stops of recording always happens when the input signal is muted.

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 26 Mar 2013, 16:07

I've just made a little test. Click happends even i'm not going to rec but when the sampler si recording in overdub mode.
It means that find a solution to mute the input or create a fade when i push rec don't work !
i think the problems is more a memory acces problem .

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 26 Mar 2013, 16:15

I guess Nay & Olivier keep an eye opened on the forum even if they are busy with hollyhock.
Having their point of view would HELP....

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 04 Apr 2013, 22:41

Hi guys
As this topic remains without any satisfying issue, I really need the Usine's team point of view : can Usine compete with physical live loopers (Jamman, Boss RC20...etc), and more precisely : can the click problem at the loop junction can be solved ?
Will Hollyhock be more efficient on this ?
I really need an answer as I'm really blocked in my work... I'd really like Usine to be my main stage software, but the sampler's performance is a part of my main needs.
Olivier ? Nay ?

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 04 Apr 2013, 22:41

Hi guys
As this topic remains without any satisfying issue, I really need the Usine's team point of view : can Usine compete with physical live loopers (Jamman, Boss RC20...etc), and more precisely : can the click problem at the loop junction can be solved ?
Will Hollyhock be more efficient on this ?
I really need an answer as I'm really blocked in my work... I'd really like Usine to be my main stage software, but the sampler's performance is a part of my main needs.
Olivier ? Nay ?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 04 Apr 2013, 23:09

no really time to test those cool patch/workspace, but I'm afraid , as you seems to guess, an EEpc is not really adapted to live looping ?
( check also about your block size)
About Hollyhock, yes the sampler has evolved and have now some children..

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 04 Apr 2013, 23:52

Percuson, do you have a powerfull PC ? Did you solve the clicks problem ?
Nay seems to suggest that my problem is more hardware than software...

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 05 Apr 2013, 00:36

I'm sorry to say that but after a lot of test on my core i5 PC, i've got ever and ever clicks in with the sampler in overdub or circular buffer mode. even with a very basic patch (only one sampler module and a rec switch). The clicks not necessary happens on the rec but there seems to produce when two differents signal meet there each over (on overdub).
it seems to be a question of zero crossing but even zero crossing is activated, clicks happens).

Clearscreen · Unread post by **Clearscreen** » 05 Apr 2013, 05:36

Something like crossfade loop sampler is kinda what we need from the sampler module?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 05 Apr 2013, 22:00

Hi!
No I have an older Athlon 64 3000+ with only 1 Gig RAM (1 Core)
And didnt't try it on my Laptop yet. (Also an older model).
But I also get clicks. And also on loop junction.
It seems that it happens, when you are oberdubbing over the loop junction.
But I don't think, that it is a problem of weak hardware.

When playing live, I still use Möbius...

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 08 Apr 2013, 10:56

To Clearscreen : this Live plugin seems to be very powerfull, much more than what I'm looking for!
To Percuson : a few questions about Mobius
- no click at the loop junction?
- do you integrate Mobius in Usine?
- if yes, what is -in a few words- the integration principle?
If you have some links / tutos explaining this I'm interested...

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 09 Apr 2013, 02:16

Hi xpir!

Before using Möbius as plugin I was using Möbius as standlone. And there are no clicks except latency issues. For me it is the most powerful software looper, but not really intuitive to use. Like Usine it takes some time, to get into it. And maybe you will have problems with sync within usine. It only works with midi clock so maybe you will recognize sync drift, but it depends on how you use Möbius (I always use Möbius as a master. When working with Möbius as a slave, there should be no problems). The best thing about Möbius: It's freeware and there is also an active forum. Sometimes it takes some time, but you'll get help.

You can downlod it at http://circularlabs.com/ (Mac and PC)
And also the Möbius forum and tutorials can be found there.
The best thing for me about Möbius is, that it is scriptable - so control via footswitch becomes very powerful.

In the past I made a few workspaces to integrate Möbius in Usine... It depends what you want to do with it. When installing, there is also provided a VST plugin with 16 audio outputs (inside Möbius you have 8 stereo tracks, so output 3 + 4 in Usine are track 2 in Möbius e.g.). That's why it it is easy to integrate it into Usine. Möbius is an 8 track looper and you can route every output to every track in Usine (via buses). I didn't have problems doing that, but other users did... So just tell me what you need.
And if you have problems, just ask. It is to comlex to answer all questions in a few words...

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 09 Apr 2013, 14:28

Thanks Percuson for your answer.
In general, why do I (slowly and hardly) want to switch to Usine ? Because I used to play with physical pedals and two physical samplers to transform a saxophone sound for a solo performance. Now, I find the physical samplers "boaring" as the they provide only static loops.
Usine and the patches are much more interesting to me. If I find a clean solution for the samplers of course.

My concrete need is : having 3 or 4 patch samplers in Usine, and then other "sound transformation" patches after them.
Those samplers have to be very simple : rec / play, clear, maybe undo redo (not so easy said Joffo), and overdub. That's my default sampler's profile, nothing more.
All the sound transformation will be done after the samplers, in other subpatches.

The fact is I'm now really lost, I and other guys asked several time to the team : is their any issue to the samplers problems (as described in this post, click problems, overbubbing pbs), is it a matter of patching skill - I'm a real beginner/learner, but other good patchers didn't solve the problem- or is Usine not the right soft to do that ? Will Hollyhock solve those problems ?
As the team doesn't answer clearly on those points, they remain unsolved.

And going to Mobius as you described it sounds demoralizing as Usine requires a lot of time.

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 09 Apr 2013, 22:42

I had clicks and buses troubles with Mobius. I've solved the problems with two things : changing for a better laptop (a core2duo is too weak for a 4 track sampler + a few VSTs), and tuning win 7 for optimal performances (especially power tuning).

I agree with percuson, Mobius is great but very hard to master

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 09 Apr 2013, 23:22

Maybe you should give Möbius a chance. Once set up correctly, it is no problem to use it.
The only problem is, that you have tons of possibilities. If you only need rec/play/ovberdub it should be easy.

If you agree, I could share all the needed files to get into it easier.
If you live in Leipzig or in Tallinn we could meet, or maybe Nay or Senso can send me your E-Mail adress.

Or maybe all the little problems will be solved with hollyhock

- Nay spoke about little children of the sampler...
And as Senso wrote... it's just a matter of days!

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 10 Apr 2013, 10:28

Do you have good results with Mobius in a single window percuson ? The dual window mode is stable, but I struggle with windows overlays...

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 10 Apr 2013, 13:47

Don' worry, there will be a free version of Usine hollyhock, so you can test before upgrade...
otherwise, i use the patch looper RC51 time to time and never heard any clicks..?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 10 Apr 2013, 13:49

Do you mmean the single/dual edit plugin window in Möbius?
In earlier verions of Usine I had to use the dual edit window. Now it seems to be stable also with single edit window (Möbius), and standalone window (Usine). Also show in IB seems to work. But the interface is still to big for having all on one screen. At the moment I'm trying to check out the OSC possibilities and try to have a pure Usine interface to control Möbius. Controlling functions with Usine buttons an faders/knobs works fine (e.g. record, mute, feedback,...) but I can't get feedback to Usine (Status Export Möbius -> Usine e.g. current loop location, Loop restart). I'm working on it...

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 10 Apr 2013, 13:59

Ok, I'll try the single window edit plugin on my new laptop in a few days.
I also have troubles getting midi out of Mobius, but haven't dug a lot. It seems you can use scripts to send midi out (have a look to this thread) .
Using a Steinberg CMC-PD 4x4 pad, I'd love to have visual feedback of what happens in Mobius....

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 10 Apr 2013, 17:02

Yes, visual feedback is also I wanted to do (but in Usine, so I could save space in my workspace). Using OSC you have a noticeable delay, so everything would be possible beside restart or cycle count, etc. That's why I also wanted to check out the midi possibilities. Should be no problem to do...

What kind of Midi problems do you have? Möbius seems to send everything besides MidiClock to the plugin outlet.

My question to you is:
How do you sync Möbius to Usine (Möbius as master). I still have some sync drift.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 10 Apr 2013, 18:48

I actually bought a second USB touchscreen for möbius. I open the plugin into this window. It works great.

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 10 Apr 2013, 22:21

@seamus : Because I found screens tyring and hypnotising, I prefer using hardware controls such as footswitches and pads. It helps me keeping my attention focused on music and public.

@percuson : I don't use Usine' sequencer, Mobius is kind of "stand alone". But I know one day I'll have to find a way to sync the loops with my effects (delays, chorus...).
I still don't understand how I can get a midi message out of Mobius to illuminate my pads. For example I'd love the pads to turn red when a track is armed, green when playing, off when mute, blinking when waiting for a record sync... I can do that by sending midi messages to the pads, it's on the Mobius side I don't know where to start

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 10 Apr 2013, 22:36

yes i prefer footswitches too. i only look at the screen for visual feedback for the loops because like you I couldnt figure out how to get that info into usine.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 11 Apr 2013, 02:36

@la tenaille Making a script for mobius should be no problem..

The main problem is to decide, how to trigger the script. Scripts are only called once in Möbius, you should call it every time, the feedback should change (e.g. the footswitch for record should also be triggered to the script). For blinking buttons this will be much more difficult, but it should also be possible with a loop with wait commands.

I posted a little demo in the Möbius Forum -> here!

... But I'm not shure if it really works...

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 11 Apr 2013, 12:19

@percuson : unfortunately I don't live in Leipzig (but played there a couple of times, amazing UT Connewitz!) but in Marseille... quiet interested to share Mobius needed files !

@nayseven : Nay, could give my mail to percuson please?

@laTenaille&percuson : maybe a good idea to open a new thread about Mobius in Usine? And leave this one dedicated to Usine as a live looper...

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 11 Apr 2013, 12:29

@xpir: Done

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 11 Apr 2013, 12:30

@nayseven : I tried the RC51 with different settings, but I always have problems when I record other tracks after the main one : they usually don't play straightaway when I stop the recording...

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 11 Apr 2013, 16:33

here
you can test a basic version of my looper.
I could have some bugs but synchro is effective.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 11 Apr 2013, 17:12

@ Joffo: I'll check it out... seems to be a nice one!

@xpir: I got your E-Mail. I'll try to send you something tonight.

And you are right, we should open a new thread...

... I live very close to UT Connewitz

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 11 Apr 2013, 17:16

Joffo, clicks remain at the loop junction......

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 11 Apr 2013, 17:22

@Nay :
If you do have time to quickly test this in Hollyhock :

-Pluging a mic in your soundcard
-Building a basic live sampler recorder patch with only rec/clear buttons and with the overdub and zerocross activated
-Singing and overdubing...

Which result with Hollyhock ? Same as Usine5 ? Clicks at the loop junction ?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 12 Apr 2013, 00:23

You don't need a Microphone to produce the clicks on loop junction. Just use athe Usine sample player and record it. When making overdubs, you get clicks....

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 14 Apr 2013, 02:37

Hi xpir!
I didn't find the time yet to send you a basic workspace...
I also have to reset möbius to get rid of everything not needed.
And some question to make it easier for me:
How many inputs do you have?
Möbius as master, or as slave? And do you work with prerecorded samples?
Because you are playing Sax, I assume, you want to control Möbius via footswitch?

I'll try to make it soon, but I'm not shure when I'll have time to do it. I had a lot of unexpected work this week....

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 17 Apr 2013, 21:00

Hi xpir!
Maybe I found an easier solution for you:
GLoop is a very simple user and does only serve the essentials (also undo redo -> called clear and recall)
download here:
http://www.gvst.co.uk/beta.htm

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 05 May 2013, 22:56

Thanks Percuson
Sorry for the delay, I was out of home for three weeks...And back to this tomorrow !
I'll let you know soon.

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 20 May 2013, 21:56

Hi guys
Percuson, did you or Joffo or somebody else proceeded to live sampling tests with Hollyhock ?
Finger crossed..........

joffo78 · Unread post by **joffo78** » 21 May 2013, 10:25

hi xpir. i'm afraid that hollyhock disent solve your problem.

FarfadetFarfelu · Unread post by **FarfadetFarfelu** » 21 May 2013, 21:24

I agree with the need to kill the clicking in overdub mode, it's probably a matter of implementing a better cross fade ?
What was said in 2009 is still true

.
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1801

If there is a way, i have not been able to find it.

FarfadetFarfelu · Unread post by **FarfadetFarfelu** » 27 May 2013, 00:46

I think i found a solution for my needs, basically a short fade triggered X ms before the end of the loop to mute the clicking sound.
The mute is placed on the output of the sampler.

It has the advantage of being consistent whether the loop is 5 seconds or 5 minutes, the mute will always be triggered X ms before the end.

The following patch is a basic Hollyhock sampler (press once to record, a second time to overdub in the loop) with the system i just described.

http://thebin.free.fr/KVR/Usine/GregBasicLooper.pat

XpiR · Unread post by **XpiR** » 09 Jun 2013, 13:57

@Percuson : late answer, but I tried Gloop and there are still some clicks at the loop junction... But - better point - there is no amplification of the click when overdubbing... Well well, better than nothing.
@Farfadet : I hope I'll switch to hollyhock soon, but untill now I can't try your patch as I'm running 5Stage version. Please leave it available for some time on your server!

In fact, as it took me some time to try to solve this problem unsuccessfully, I decided to come back to a physical looper between my physical effect chain and Usine... So I have unfortunately only one sampler (I would have liked 2 or 3 virtual in Usine) but I can now concentrate on patching.

tanabarbier · Unread post by **tanabarbier** » 11 Jul 2013, 21:49

Hi everybody!

Any improvement on looping with Hollyhock? I really haven't the time right now to learn the new version and convert all my workspaces etc, so I keep on using 5.8 (that I love, besides this looping problem).

I tried a lot of different approaches to that clic problem, and I don't know, I feel that it could be a sync problem, something to do with bloc size and how it make syncronization imposible for an accuracy smaller than what this bloc is, in time.

This may be a really stupid question, but, is there a way to know what the bloc size is in seconds?

Have a good day!

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 11 Jul 2013, 22:08

For the bloc size, you can find some informations on the 5.80 asio setup page

tanabarbier · Unread post by **tanabarbier** » 11 Jul 2013, 22:11

I am so stupid! The number is in "samples", ok. Thank you!!

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