preset managers behaving badly

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 17 Oct 2012, 21:22

I made templates for my vst's with JOffo's preset manager patch. see the previous posts

here my vst's are loaded with the correct preset managers.

i make a few snaps in the conductor settings so that my program change messages call up conductor presets with various combinations of sounds. Then my presets all of a sudden shift themselves! The preset managers are all mixed up between patches! WHY is this happening.???
THe patches are all on different tracks.

I even tried saving the subpatch of the preset manager with a seperate name for each saved to a separate folder.

here the presets get messed up after a few conductor patch changes.

sorry the order of the synths is different cause i re organized the Interface builder mode. THe point is however if you look you can see the preset managers are "hoping into bed with other patches" ! HELP!!!

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 17 Oct 2012, 21:54

note:

When i reload the the patch the correct presets come back.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 17 Oct 2012, 22:06

I suppose the only way we can help here is if you can reproduce it with a simple example and a freeware vst..?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 17 Oct 2012, 22:49

Which ones do u recommend.? Synth1 is in one

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 17 Oct 2012, 23:32

its possible it might be ok after rebuilding the workspace. i will test further and report back

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:13

actually i was able to replicate the problem without using a vst.

i will upload a workspace and 3 patches. when you go to the conductor and change the snaps after a little bit of switching presets for the 3 patches get mixed up.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:18

http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... or%201.pat

http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... or%202.pat

http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... or%203.pat

http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... tester.wkp

3 patches for the workspace. Maybe someone knows why the presets for patch 1 ,2, and 3 start getting mixed up with each other after changing presets with the conductor.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:38

i will check more tomorrow, but all your tracks are in rack mode and in some presets this rack is OFF ( yellow square up/right )
I've rebuilt some presets with all rack ON, and all seems fine here..?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:43

after some switching you should still get the presets from patch 1 going somewhere else like patch 3 for instance

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:46

rack on was on the whole time in my workspace. The patches were toggled on and off with different settings changed by the conductor.

did you not notice the mixing up of presets?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 00:55

i should be able to have the patch toggled on and off with the conductor settings no? I purposely had different combinations of on/off and presets with the 3 patches in this workspace.

is the problem then that i cant use the on/off switch for the different patches? maybe when a patch is off the presets get mixed up? that seem strange and unfortunate but maybe that is the problem.
if you redownload the workspace and change conductor presets are you able to recreate my problem?
I normally turn off patches if i am not using them.
should i keep all the patches "on" and use a bypass button instead?

thanks for the help

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 01:10

it may take a minute or two of switching conductor presets to get it to happen but the presets should get mixed up

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 01:30

in my testing the on/off state of the patch doesnt affect the outcome. the problem remains, the presets get mixed up.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 18 Oct 2012, 10:53

ok, so after some test, i confirm issue, but I'm afraid the problem came from the 23fx script, here a workspace without script, seems to work ok
Download

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 18 Oct 2012, 11:28

hi there..

yep..i can confirm that issue too..rather unpredictable..

cheers,
io

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 18 Oct 2012, 17:15

so if i want to have more than 16 presets?
the ability to label the preset without having to go into the patch window?
is that possible?

too bad about 23fx's script cause it was a nice preset manager!

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 18 Oct 2012, 19:01

hi mates, sorry i was out for a long time. mmmm i can't catch the pb for now, will investigate

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 19 Oct 2012, 23:51

Nay seven?

So in your opinion should I stick with the workspace you uploaded above?
All the good preset managers use the 23fx script?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 20 Oct 2012, 00:29

maybe you can let a little time to 23fx to investigate but waiting for this,I've found an old patch, maybe can be an other way to search a way
Download

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 20 Oct 2012, 21:08

ok thanks for this. It helps for the time being.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 21 Oct 2012, 19:52

i noticed that in the latest preset manager you added above it is impossible to select preset "2" its listed as preset 3 though. It just cant be selected.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 22 Feb 2013, 05:22

I can confirm that the lists are still getting mixed up although the state of the vst's is still being saved correctly. Hopefully in Hollyhock we will see a good solution to preset management. I think it is useful to use preset managers for vsts. I like to have 80 or so presets for some synths in a preset manager. Then the process of building conductor scenes is quite quick. Unfortunately it doesnt work perfectly at the moment.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 22 Feb 2013, 17:24

i forgot to respond, im not a conductor user and the use of booth preset and conductor at same time is triky for me so i investigated but i wasn't able to debug my pm system sorry..

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 23 Feb 2013, 01:33

so is it not recommended to use both the conductor and patch presets?

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 23 Feb 2013, 03:48

nope sorry i meant 'for me', because i personally don't know well conductor, i think it's not a problem to use booth, no worry, but maybe more with the classical 16 preset module. my 256pm version use iml wich is maybe? the source of the problem conflicting with conductor for setting targets patchs, but i don't really know..

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 23 Feb 2013, 18:06

yes the classic one works fine. It seems that the preset lists get mixed up in the other fancier preset managers when there is more than one instance of them being used.
I am hoping that in Hollyhock the classic preset 16 button module will be improved. It would be nice to have more than 16 and a way to easily update and save the name etc. i think that presets for a patch combined with the conductor are powerful (when they work properly)

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 23 Feb 2013, 20:41

Hi seamus!
I tried to reproduce your problem, but i couldn't get the presets switching.
I opened your workspace went to the conductor and clicked the different snaps for about 10 minutes....
Nothing changed...
If I understand it right, I suddenly should have preset "test 1a" in the patch "recall by conductor 2" for example.
Am I making something "wrong"?
Or is this issue belonging to different computers systems?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 23 Feb 2013, 21:31

hmm strange. iococoi and nay seven did confirm the issue.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 24 Feb 2013, 05:26

yes, really strange...
I thought about it while drinking some wine and made some scripts to test it out....
Im not a coder, but if the names switch between the patches Usine mixes up the names when calculating. Maybe you use multicore processors and since the presets have the same names in the patches Usine gets confused with the results. (I have a single core machine)

Please check out the following to see if it still happens:
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... ster_1.wkp
i did a little change in the script and every preset manger has a unique name. Maybe it works....

To check out, if it happens because of an interaction with the script, I deleted all 3 scripts from your original file:
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... eleted.wkp

And maybe its an internal problem of Usine with conductor and preset managers. So here is a simple version with normal preset managers:
But I think this should work....
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/upload ... simple.wkp

Maybe with these few variants one can figure out, where the problem is.

I also found a strange behaviour with the script/conductor that could be related to the switching names:
Try to rename a preset. It switches back to the old name in the text field. Clear the preset and it switches to the value you entered... After that, renaming seems to be no problem until you save the preset....

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 28 Feb 2013, 10:57

percuson,

In your first workspace above i still have the problem as before. the names hop around but the state of the faders in the patches doesnt seem to change.
In the 2nd workspace the names of the patches stay properly. With no scripts however the state of the patch is not saved when changing patches.
So this confirms it is something with the script.
Of course the last workspace is with the simple old preset managers. I already knew that worked. I was looking for a way to save about 100 presets with a patch.

would renaming the script help? Having a differently named script for each patch?

its frustrating not be able to store presets for patches properly in Usine.
Is anyone else frustrated by this problem?
Will it be fixed in hollyhock?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 28 Feb 2013, 11:09

oh and yes i am on a multicore machine maybe this is part of the problem...

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 28 Feb 2013, 16:28

That's what I thought. But I can't really believe that it is multicore problem.
Did you try to set nb threads to 1? (Global setup ->system&cpu)
But I don't really know, if Usine really uses one core, if you set it to one.

My last idea would be to give each script a distinct name. e.g. N_PM_1, N_PM_2,....
That's what I forgot, when changing the patch. But I encountered that the problem seems to be not only a problem with the scripts.
Maybe this helps....

Another idea:
Try to set the values of all Listbuttons to "not saved in preset" and "not saved in conductor" (->edit layout).
or try one of them.
After doing that save your workspace and reload it.
This could be a workaround for the confusion inside....
I found a false behaviour when trying ot preset and conductor, that's why this may help.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 01 Mar 2013, 00:41

its the listbtn files that are getting mixed up. To find a way so that the presets dont switch listbtn files with each other.
I tried the things you mentioned and nothing worked yet.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 01 Mar 2013, 01:06

setting the nb threads to 1 seems to solve the problem. Does this mean however I am going to lose the power of a quad core machine with Usine? Am I effectively losing my full processing power and just using one of the cores?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 01 Mar 2013, 01:19

i suppose I will leave the global setup on nb threads of 1 for now and hope that I dont lose any performance.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 01 Mar 2013, 09:03

now the strange problem i have is that some synths/patches in my setup wont sound unless i have nb up to 4 or more.
So the question is can I run a full setup of several synths with bus audio and bus midi with a setting of nb1?
Or better yet is there a way to make these presets behave in higher nb values? It seems like I am limited to a certain number of tracks with a NB setting of only one.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 01 Mar 2013, 11:25

There shouldn't be any restriction on the hardware side. More cores are simply faster. And the more tracks you have, the more cpu is needed. So you get limited... Do you really need that much presets? And isn't there a patching variant of presets without scripts?
Increasing the level for higher nb values isn't possible, I think...
Hm.... no solution at this time. If I could reproduce the error, it would be much easier.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 01 Mar 2013, 17:31

the multiproc find is interesting, maybe an 'hardwired' version that don't use iml but real wires would work correctly i think , i will try next week and post if working..

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 02 Mar 2013, 04:34

I'm already trying to hard wire. I did it with a poly sub patch and it uses a lot cpu... when trying to also store the names, I had about 15%

But I have a totally different idea....

@Seamus: Did you check already, if only the names get confused, or if also the settings of faders, etc... mix up?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 03 Mar 2013, 03:11

just the names get mixed up not the faders or settings... but it can still cause problems as you can imagine. Usually i can reload the patch and all is fine

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 03 Mar 2013, 03:13

i wonder if in Hollyhock a new system of preset management for patches will exist?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 03 Mar 2013, 05:51

I figuered out, that it is a simple script problem:
The script is saved in the preset and it is recalled at older preset values, so the names switch to recent values.
I'll try to build a simple demo to show the effect. But this doesn't explain the mixup between the patches. Maybe this is called by copy and paste.
The solution would be, to set the names by patch and not by script. The prob is, that to create comma text, you need a script.....

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 03 Mar 2013, 08:47

maybe 23fx23 can fix it? Or should i just abandon this way of saving presets for patches?

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 03 Mar 2013, 16:26

sorry im not sure i understood, you mean problem could come from the script setting the listbox text for presets? if so i suspect
iml causes the problem, and maybe sertting it via wire would solve the problem, but indeed it makes a huge array and is quite cpu violent..not ideal mmmmm

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 03 Mar 2013, 21:39

Yes the names of the presets are getting exchanged.
That's really a shame there isn't a simple solution. I guess it's best to just stick to the simple senso 16 presets.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 03 Mar 2013, 22:35

i guess by waitig hollyock yes, it will be out soon and sthe scripting engine has been updated , so it should fix the pb

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 04 Mar 2013, 06:30

After spending the whole night in building a 'hardwired' version, I think I found 2 mistakes in 23fx23s script...

Try it out please:
download

I set "SetFastCallBack - false" for all inputs
and I set the "setdontsave" command for the text inputs.
I'm annoyed that I didn't take a closer look at the script earlier....
This should really solve the problems.
If not... I finished my hardwired version before finding the errors and could share it.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:31

mmm the setdont save was needed to store and recall the correct list when reopening the patch, i think we need it but i'll check.. anyway the patch itself got 'don't store to preset ' activeted normally nope?? (if not you indeed need to desactivate save to PM when copying the patch). maybe the setfastcallback could be set to false, but it will be less responsive. but try if it solves the pb

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 04 Mar 2013, 12:48

when working with IML it's really necessary to disable fast callback. I had usine crashes when making the vst loader until I enabled it.
This could have been the cause for mixing up between tracks. When enabled, Usine produces strange things.
I found this hint on the IML wiki site nearly at the top.
About the setdont I'm not really shure in your script. I fixed my problems when building the hardwired version with it. It also changes preset saving. I enabled this only to eliminate all possible errors. Since your script has no outputs, the chance is high, that it is not necesary.

What do you mean with the "the patch itself got 'don't store to preset ' activeted normally"? Did you mean the list box?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 05 Mar 2013, 00:06

i will download the updated script and see if that solves the problems. Thanks guys!

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 05 Mar 2013, 00:10

on each path, i mean for ex here the 256pm, when ou double clic and open it there are 'stored to preset manager' or 'stored to conductor' swichs when you are in the patch, if booth are disable there should be no recall of everything included in the patch, incuding the listbox, and including the script, exept for recall on reopening the patch.
mmm wait ... now i remember.. indeed it has later benn changed and items such list box got this swich in the edit layout now, maybe this was later than when i uploaded it.. man has to check it is unchecked too maybe this would fix the pb, cause teorically if booth are unchecked there won't be any recall.
(i must admit i don't got usine on the computer, made a fresh install recently and was very busy, i ll try to check tomorrow)

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 05 Mar 2013, 00:24

so .. i installed usine and when opening the workspace i see that when you clic on the 256pm patch 'not saved in preset' is unchecked,

try with enabling it on each patch, and also click each list box and text field and clic 'edit layout' and enable both swichs 'not stored in preset ' and ' not saved in conductor', this may solve the problem maybe.. gonna try to check more deeply

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 05 Mar 2013, 00:46

i unchecked all the stored to pm and condutor swich in the items and patchs '256'pm and set fastcallback to false,
it 'looks' like is working now but im note sure, maybe give a try:
http://sensomusic.com/forums/uploads.ph ... r%2002.wkp

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 05 Mar 2013, 12:40

thanks 23fx23 for the hint that I can also exclude whole patches from beeing stored in the preset.
I totally forgot that there is an option for doing that at the top of the patch window

.

I think your patch should work now. I cannot check this out, because I couldn't get the errors happen on my computer.
So seamus has to do the test.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 05 Mar 2013, 20:14

I'm gonna check this and report back

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:43

it seems to work!! Bravo! Thank you so much! Usine has such a supportive community!

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:56

cool!

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 06 Mar 2013, 10:31

@ percusson thx for the fastcallback reminder^^ i was really busy rhose days and you made a nice investigation^^
Cool seamus

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 07 Mar 2013, 14:32

@ 23fx23: could you update it in the add-ons section? So nobody else will have the same problem...

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 07 Mar 2013, 15:04

yup ill do this tonight or tomorrow, iam actually at work

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